Port brand abbreviations
- Alex Bridgeman
- Graham’s 1948
- Posts: 14999
- Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
- Location: Berkshire, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
What is the rule for a single letter abbreviation to be used for a shipper? Why no single letter abbreviation for shippers beginning with M?
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
- Alex Bridgeman
- Graham’s 1948
- Posts: 14999
- Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
- Location: Berkshire, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
RVi works for mejdaw1 wrote:RVi? RVc? Pee? RVo?
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Port House abbreviations
Shippers are not equal. Taylor is a more important shipper that Tedo. As Taylor is the only ‘T’ with this property, Taylor gets a single letter. Likewise, Sandeman and Skeffington; Graham and Guedes; Fonseca and Feuerheerd; Dow and Dalva.AHB wrote:What is the rule for a single letter abbreviation to be used for a shipper? Why no single letter abbreviation for shippers beginning with M?
There are no important M shippers. None get the single-letter privilege.
The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.
- Alex Bridgeman
- Graham’s 1948
- Posts: 14999
- Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
- Location: Berkshire, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
Burmester is historically more important to shippers beginning with B than Martinez is to shippers beginning with M. Discuss. (100 marks available.)jdaw1 wrote:The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Port House abbreviations
That’s fair. Martinez = M?AHB wrote:Burmester is historically more important to shippers beginning with B than Martinez is to shippers beginning with M. Discuss. (100 marks available.)jdaw1 wrote:The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.
- Alex Bridgeman
- Graham’s 1948
- Posts: 14999
- Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
- Location: Berkshire, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
Martinez = M has better brevity than Burmester = Bu.
Works for me.
Works for me.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Port House abbreviations
It’s a substantial change of years-long practice. It needs more of a consensus than AHB enthusiasm and JDAW reluctant acceptance of change in a changing world. Others?
Re: Port House abbreviations
I am mostly ambivalent, but happy to accept our new M=Martinez overlords.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
Glenn E. wrote:Why not RV for Real Vinicola?
jdaw1 wrote:RV = Rebello Valente
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3538
- Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
- Location: Near Cambridge, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
I'm less convinced by the idea of complete overhaul. I would stay with Mz, for example. For Real Vinicola while I'm OK with RVi, I would suggest an alternative not proposed of RVn, on the basis that we seem to have mostly select next/later consonant rather than vowels to date.
Re: Port House abbreviations
Martinez: Alex wants change. Glenn and I tolerate it. Phil opposes.
RVn: opinions?
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RVn: opinions?
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Re: Port House abbreviations
Any objection to Ps = Quinta do Passadouro (whether or not made by Niepoort)?
Re: Port House abbreviations
I'm with Phil on the Martinez point. Just because M is free doesn't mean it must be used. When I read Mz I immediately recognise which shipper is being referenced. If I read M, I would need to think about it for a moment.jdaw1 wrote:Martinez: Alex wants change. Glenn and I tolerate it. Phil opposes.
RVn: opinions?
Re: Port House abbreviations
My familiarity with Passadouro ends basically with the name.jdaw1 wrote:Any objection to Ps = Quinta do Passadouro (whether or not made by Niepoort)?
If it produced Port on its own, then Ps seems fine.
But when produced by Niepoort, it should be NiPs for those vintages.
I don't think Ps should be used for both.
Last edited by Glenn E. on 05:00 Tue 06 Sep 2016, edited 1 time in total.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
I do understand the desire to keep what works, and am fine with Mz. I'm really only in favor of breaking with tradition when doing so provides additional clarity or better standardization. Mz -> M really does neither.PhilW wrote:I'm less convinced by the idea of complete overhaul. I would stay with Mz, for example. For Real Vinicola while I'm OK with RVi, I would suggest an alternative not proposed of RVn, on the basis that we seem to have mostly select next/later consonant rather than vowels to date.
RVi and RVn are equally fine to me now that I've been reminded of RV.
Glenn Elliott
- Alex Bridgeman
- Graham’s 1948
- Posts: 14999
- Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
- Location: Berkshire, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
I'm happy with RVn, Ps and the continued use of Mz (the latter being intuitive) but would then prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.
I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Port House abbreviations
RVn: decided. Ps: decided. Mz: unchanged (good).AHB wrote:I'm happy with RVn, Ps and the continued use of Mz (the latter being intuitive)
Was Passadouro part of Niepoort’s full-declaration blends? If so, I could support NiP.AHB wrote:I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
Should pre-Symington Vesuvio be differently abbreviated to Symington Vesuvio? If not, can the wine made from Quinta do Passadouro grapes be called Quinta do Passadouro = Ps, irrespective of whether the people around the lagares were employees of Ferreira / Symington / Graham / Niepoort?
B or Bu: Other opinions?AHB wrote:prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3538
- Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
- Location: Near Cambridge, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
Although I can see the argument to keep the abbreviation the same in both cases (hence Ps and NiPs), I appreciate the argument for brevity so am also ok with Ps and NiP.jdaw1 wrote:Was Passadouro part of Niepoort’s full-declaration blends? If so, I could support NiP.AHB wrote:I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
Although there are a number of options for this, I would suggest that the way the wine is presented on the label is the key for our use. There are essentially three cases:jdaw1 wrote:Should pre-Symington Vesuvio be differently abbreviated to Symington Vesuvio? If not, can the wine made from Quinta do Passadouro grapes be called Quinta do Passadouro = Ps, irrespective of whether the people around the lagares were employees of Ferreira / Symington / Graham / Niepoort?
1. Where the wine is independently released by the quinta, e.g. Quinta do Infantando
2. Where the wine is released and is presented as from the Quinta, even though owned by a major house, e.g. Quinta do Vesuvio; where the maker is mentioned on the label, but not as highly promonent.
3. Where the wine is released and is presented as from the House and Quinta, e.g. Warre Quinta da Cavadinha or Croft da Roeda
Currently, whether intentional or not, we have mostly followed the labels, thus I, V and WC. I would suggest sticking to that premise, unless good reason to do otherwise. The same applies to brands from houses, such as "F. Martins" which is a brand of vintage port made by Hutcheson, for which I would expect the abbreviation to be FM, rather than HFM, and the same for BoBs.
To answer your question re:Passadouro directly, given the currently label I would expect Ps; if Niepoort had previously owned/received grapes from this Quinta and created a single Quinta wine with it, then if they presented it as "Quinta do Passadouro" with "created and bottled by Niepoort" I would go with Ps; if they presented it as "Niepoort's Quinta do Passadouro" (all in similar size font) then it would be NiP/NiPs.
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- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3538
- Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
- Location: Near Cambridge, UK
Re: Port House abbreviations
Happy with either.jdaw1 wrote:B or Bu: Other opinions?AHB wrote:prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.
BTW, I don't believe that there is any difference between Offley (O) and Offley Boa Vista (OBV), except that some labellers have shortened Offley Boa Vista to Offley on their labels.
Re: Port House abbreviations
Based on those labels, I'd say Ps. All of those seem to fall under Phil's option #2. (All 5 pictures on WineSearcher do as well, at least one of which overlaps with these.)
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port House abbreviations
This is incorrect. One vintage from the 1980s exists where two wines were produced from the same vintage ("Offley" and "Offley Boa Vista"), both using grapes from the Quinta.PhilW wrote:BTW, I don't believe that there is any difference between Offley (O) and Offley Boa Vista (OBV), except that some labellers have shortened Offley Boa Vista to Offley on their labels.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
Re: Port House abbreviations
I see we have settled on Mz with which I concur. I would prefer B for Burmester but more ambivalent on this one. I note we don't seem to have covered Quinta do Vallado? Have had some lovely aged tawnies from the producer (although they have produced some VPs).