Quinta da Sabordela and Quinta do Bomfim

[jdaw1]

As has been reported elsewhere , the Symingtons have bought Quinta da Sabordela, as they have hoped to do so since 1912. It will be included within Quinta do Bomfim.

I hope that, in a year not too far away, the Symingtons declare a SQVP from Sabordela and in the same year a SQVP from ‘old’ Bomfim, to allow their customers to compare. At least once. Because their customers (translation: us) want that side-by-side.

Would a petition be effective? Would it be likely to get a million signatures?

[DRT]

An order for 250 cases might be more persuasive.

[jdaw1]

Not sure about a million signatories or even an order for 250 cases

Sigh.

[djewesbury]

Not sure about a million signatories or even an order for 250 cases

Sigh.

What about persuading them to offer an invitation to taste two such ports at Bomfim a few years from now; they could be made with much less expense if they were simply private bottlings, and not exported. They could even erect a plaque at the historic spot.

[jdaw1]

What about persuading them to offer an invitation to taste two such ports at Bomfim a few years from now; they could be made with much less expense if they were simply private bottlings, and not exported. They could even erect a plaque at the historic spot.

That would test my spell-casting abilities. Only once has an Enchantment worked on the IVDP (government bodies have particularly awkward anti-Enchantment protections); and only once has Taylor-Fladgate succumbed to a Conjuration Charm.

And now you ask for a Declaration spell more powerful than the Symingtons. That be of the deepest dark-fruited arts. A thick and slab potion, requiring rare ingredients.

• Cork of fresh-decanted 1878 Dow;
  Bung-hole pulled by a babe.^” 

Finding which would need an even more powerful Conjuration Charm.

”  Couldn’t quite get it to scan correctly. Please help.

[LGTrotter]

I am sorry to revert to worry about what seems to have been greeted with the loud cheers of the populace but I am not sure that great and growing monoliths produce very interesting or diverse wines.

Or is that just me?

And I certainly do not wish to encourage the above attempt at spells, sounded decidedly iffy to me.

[djewesbury]

I am sorry to revert to worry about what seems to have been greeted with the loud cheers of the populace but I am not sure that great and growing monoliths produce very interesting or diverse wines.

Or is that just me?

And I certainly do not wish to encourage the above attempt at spells, sounded decidedly iffy to me.

I agree with Owen!
But I'll still drink the juice when the forever non-existent invitation is received.

[uncle tom]

That would test my spell-casting abilities..

Why not try:

Sweat from aged picker's brow
Schistus dust and cork of Dow
Make the liquid dark and red
Vinous wort that many tread

[djewesbury]

That would test my spell-casting abilities..

Why not try:

Sweat from aged picker's brow
Schistus dust and cork of Dow
Make the liquid dark and red
Vinous wort that many tread

All together now...

[jdaw1]

• Aguardiente burn, and fermentation bubble.

Are we yet off the original subject?

[uncle tom]

Aguardiente burn, and fermentation bubble

Whilst the witches rhymes in Macbeth may not be in the normal Shakespearean iambic pentameter, and have been doubted for their authenticity for that reason, poems aren't quite your forte...

[jdaw1]

poems aren't quite your forte...

Guilty.

[DRT]

Wrong time of year, but!

Roses are red
Violets are blue
We all love Bomfim
And Sabrodela too

[RAYC]

Is there any limit to what could constitue a "Quinta"? Or is the only limit the number of adjoining quintas that come up for sale? Does anyone know whether they have to border one another in order to be merged (for instance, what if they are adjacent but separated by a main road, or a river?).


Are there comparisons to be made here between the consolidation/absorption of an established Quinta and what TFP are doing with the Wiese & Krohn stocks...?

[jdaw1]

Are there comparisons to be made here between the consolidation/absorption of an established Quinta and what TFP are doing with the Wiese & Krohn stocks...?

It might be that the grapes of Quinta da Sabordela have long been a constituent of Dow. I don’t know, but that sort of arrangement is typical.

However, I do know that Sabordela is currently not in good repair. So it might have been that its grapes were in Dow, then there stopped being grapes. And in the future they will again be in Dow.

Might have been: hopefully somebody with actual knowledge will tell us.

[RAYC]

I suppose the underlying thoughts behind my comment were (I) that the concept of a Quinta becomes slightly meaningless if it is so malleable and (II) that it is perhaps a shame if historic quintas cease to "exist". But perhaps that's the way it's always been and any nostalgia would be misplaced.

[DRT]

Is there any limit to what could constitue a "Quinta"? Or is the only limit the number of adjoining quintas that come up for sale? Does anyone know whether they have to border one another in order to be merged (for instance, what if they are adjacent but separated by a main road, or a river?).

Quinta do Noval is a fine example of this as part of it lies below the main road from Pinhao to Vale de Mendiz. I think that plot is what was once Quinta do Marco.

I don't think the plots that make up a quinta need to be contiguous.

The Symingtons are doing anything new here. In fact, quite the reverse. Quinta dos Malvedos swallowed up a number of adjoining plots, which is one of the reasons why Malvedos can now be a true SQVP. Quinta de Vargellas was formerly three separate quintas that were merged together shortly before or as a consequence of Taylor purchasing it. The Portuguese law of inheritance is partly to blame for the continual movement of boundaries of Douro quintas. A good source to find out more about this is Alex Liddell's Port Quintas of the Douro.

Are there comparisons to be made here between the consolidation/absorption of an established Quinta and what TFP are doing with the Wiese & Krohn stocks...?

I don't think so, unless there is an existing stock of wine that came with the quinta that the Symington's will now brand as Dow.

[RAYC]

Are there comparisons to be made here between the consolidation/absorption of an established Quinta and what TFP are doing with the Wiese & Krohn stocks...?

I don't think so, unless there is an existing stock of wine that came with the quinta that the Symington's will now brand as Dow.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking about quite such a literal comparison....

[DRT]

Are there comparisons to be made here between the consolidation/absorption of an established Quinta and what TFP are doing with the Wiese & Krohn stocks...?

I don't think so, unless there is an existing stock of wine that came with the quinta that the Symington's will now brand as Dow.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking about quite such a literal comparison....

What comparison were you thinking of?

[LGTrotter]

A figurative comparison obviously, keep up Derek.

[RAYC]

The Symingtons are doing anything new here. In fact, quite the reverse. Quinta dos Malvedos swallowed up a number of adjoining plots, which is one of the reasons why Malvedos can now be a true SQVP.

This is where the concept of "true SQVP" becomes a bit fuzzy and rather meaningless for me.

I think I just prefer the romantic notion of "terroir"

[RAYC]

Are there comparisons to be made here between the consolidation/absorption of an established Quinta and what TFP are doing with the Wiese & Krohn stocks...?

I don't think so, unless there is an existing stock of wine that came with the quinta that the Symington's will now brand as Dow.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking about quite such a literal comparison....

What comparison were you thinking of?

Inter alia, one was a sale of wines and the other a sale of vines.

The wines and vines continue to exist but in each case have been stripped of their pre-sale heritage. Stocks of "Taylor" wine are increased, area of "Bomfim" is increased from 50 hectares to 80 hectares.

[DRT]

I see where you are coming from but I think there is a distinction between taking a finished product and re-branding it as your own and taking over a plot of land, renovating the vineyards, and using what you produce from it in the wines that bear your companies name.

The location from which grapes come from that contribute to a particular shipper's wines is a very transient and fluid thing. There are not many (if any) shippers who can validly claim to grow every grape they put in their Port and they do not always buy from the same sources. But it is unusual (I think) for a major shipper to buy other major shipper's aged wines and brand them as their own.

[Glenn E.]

Besides BOB?

[DRT]

Besides BOB?

I don't get the link, Glenn. BOBs are branded in the name of the buyer (retailer), not the shipper who produced them.

[djewesbury]

I think there's a degree of preciousness going on here; also an attention to detail that risks missing the bigger picture. I don't feel any nostalgia for a quinta I'd never heard of that was probably growing very little, and of a generic, untraceable sort. I do however agree (of course) with Owen that standardisation and conglomeration is not the best imaginable outcome for the Douro; but I also think (as Foucault's histories of institutions show us) that perhaps the thing we call an outcome is really just a symptom - of greater diversification, of a greater number of producers becoming very well established and able to take on the big boys, leading them to respond with acquisitions and new brands. I don't care if a farm can keep its name if a road runs through it, I would be hard pressed to think of places where that would be proscribed. I do care if everything becomes either SFE or TFP but I don't think that will happen.

[RAYC]

I see where you are coming from but I think there is a distinction between taking a finished product and re-branding it as your own and taking over a plot of land, renovating the vineyards, and using what you produce from it in the wines that bear your companies name.

I think you have misunderstood me - the point is not the use of the grapes in wines that bear the "Dow" name, it's the idea that the wine can represent a "true SQVP" from Bomfim. To me, that makes the whole concept of SQVP rather meaningless.

[RAYC]

I don't feel any nostalgia for a quinta I'd never heard of that was probably growing very little, and of a generic, untraceable sort.

It's not just the name of Sabordela that has changed, but the nature of Bomfim (which presumably you had heard of and has been producing SQVP wines of its own for some time).

[jdaw1]

As other have mentioned, because of the law of inheritance the quintas have been movable.

So long as quintas are reasonably contiguous, and change only slowly, then the term has enough meaning to be somewhat meaningful. Which is good enough for me.

[LGTrotter]

but I also think (as Foucault's histories of institutions show us) that perhaps the thing we call an outcome is really just a symptom - of greater diversification, of a greater number of producers becoming very well established and able to take on the big boys.

I appreciate that my knowledge of Foucault is limited to 'Madness and civilisation' and 'discipline and punish' so I may be a bit slow here but how the jiggery is SFE and TFP buying everything in sight a sure sign of strong and diverse small producers.

I see where you are coming from but I think there is a distinction between taking a finished product and re-branding it as your own and taking over a plot of land, renovating the vineyards, and using what you produce from it in the wines that bear your companies name.

I think you have misunderstood me - the point is not the use of the grapes in wines that bear the "Dow" name, it's the idea that the wine will represent a "true SQVP" from Bomfim. To me, that makes the whole concept of SQVP rather meaningless.

I have paid little attention to SQVP and its evolutions, however I have a fairly strong sense that like whoever it was in Alice in wonderland said; that it means what they say it means. At times this is a farm you could visit, at others it is a wine they did not want to sell under the main label. And that's fine. I thought it had always been meaningless rather than being devalued by the current shenanigans.

[LGTrotter]

but I also think (as Foucault's histories of institutions show us) that perhaps the thing we call an outcome is really just a symptom - of greater diversification, of a greater number of producers becoming very well established and able to take on the big boys.

I appreciate that my knowledge of Foucault is limited to 'Madness and civilisation' and 'discipline and punish' so I may be a bit slow here but how the jiggery is SFE and TFP buying everything in sight a sure sign of strong and diverse small producers.

On reflection I suppose that while lots of small farms are being sold it demonstrates that there are lots of small farmers. While this may be true for institutions (where there is no limit to how many there may be) it may be less applicable to farms where there certainly is a finite limit.

[DRT]

I see where you are coming from but I think there is a distinction between taking a finished product and re-branding it as your own and taking over a plot of land, renovating the vineyards, and using what you produce from it in the wines that bear your companies name.

I think you have misunderstood me - the point is not the use of the grapes in wines that bear the "Dow" name, it's the idea that the wine can represent a "true SQVP" from Bomfim. To me, that makes the whole concept of SQVP rather meaningless.

Do you have Liddel's book? If you do you should read pages 15 to 36. The legal situation might have changed since publication in 1991 but the basic summary of what Liddell said is that there was no legal or widely accepted definition of what a quinta is and no law that dictated what goes in the bottle should be from the quinta that appears on the label. He even puts forward a view that the plots that constitute a quinta should not be more than a kilometre apart!

Given that the size, shape and names of the quintas of the Douro have been a continually moving feast since the mid 1600s I can't see how this particular merger changes anything. We don't even know whether or not the Symingtons intend using the Sabrodela grapes in the Bomfim SQVP. The current SQVP will be made from a very limited area within the current Bomfim quinta with the rest of the production being used for other styles. That might not change.

[DRT]

On reflection I suppose that while lots of small farms are being sold it demonstrates that there are lots of small farmers. While this may be true for institutions (where there is no limit to how many there may be) it may be less applicable to farms where there certainly is a finite limit.

I read somewhere that there are 20,000 grape producers in the Douro. There are fewer than 100 registered shippers. I think shippers buying other shippers is a much greater threat to diversity than shippers buying land from farmers who cannot afford to invest in the vineyards and are living on the edge of abject poverty. The former will eventually result in consolidation of the vast majority of the trade into a handful of shippers, the latter will very likely improve the quality of the vines and put the Douro region on a sounder economic footing, not to mention releasing equity that will allow the small farmers to improve their standard of living.

[LGTrotter]

I think shippers buying other shippers is a much greater threat to diversity than shippers buying land from farmers who cannot afford to invest in the vineyards and are living on the edge of abject poverty. The former will eventually result in consolidation of the vast majority of the trade into a handful of shippers, the latter will very likely improve the quality of the vines and put the Douro region on a sounder economic footing, not to mention releasing equity that will allow the small farmers to improve their standard of living.

While there is something in what you say in the first part of your post I am less sure that large and well funded organisations or individuals buying up small and precarious farms has quite such a glorious history as your post would suggest. Especially for the precarious.

[DRT]

I didn't mean it to sound glorious, but more than once I have met small Douro farmers when accompanying larger producers on grape-buying trips and you would be forgiven for thinking some of those people were living in a third world country. It is only two or three years since there were riots in the streets of Regua because the IVDP reduced the Beneficio leaving hundreds of these farmers with grapes they could not sell for the price they needed to feed their families. The current situation is unsustainable and the only practical solution is to drastically reduce the number of grape producers, which can only happen through consolidation. Whether it is better for a small farmer to have an injection of capital to allow him to start a new life or to continue living in the 1800s is probably something none of us here could give an informed view on.

[RAYC]

Do you have Liddel's book? If you do you should read pages 15 to 36. The legal situation might have changed since publication in 1991 but the basic summary of what Liddell said is that there was no legal or widely accepted definition of what a quinta is and no law that dictated what goes in the bottle should be from the quinta that appears on the label. He even puts forward a view that the plots that constitute a quinta should not be more than a kilometre apart!

Very interesting - will take a look. However, i do think the use of "Quinta" on the label is governed by EU and national Portuguese law.

Links to the relevant EU Council regulation and the detailed Commission regulation made thereunder. Article 57 of the Regulation establishes "Quinta" as a protected term (must represent wine "made exclusively from grapes harvested in vine­yards exploited by that holding") and delegates responsibility for precise rules to Portugal.

The Portuguese rules can be found here: Portaria n.o 1084/2003, which talk a lot about the various registrations that need to be made and are generally unfathomable to me. And presumably to make these registrations there are a number of other criteria that must be met (so a whole further sub-level of regulations)...

[djewesbury]

Owen, re Foucault: merely that the thing we think is happening may not be the totality it is presented as, but rather a sign of other things that are happening. I harp on about the rise of the small producers, and how the change of legislation in the 80s has now come good for a number of them, and I genuinely believe that this is behind the rise of the superbrands. Similarly, the desire of SFE /TFP to consolidate perhaps best demonstrates the impossibility of complete consolidation, and their anxiety about increased competition. And as Derek says the current situation is genuinely unsustainable.

Also, Derek has mentioned the composition of Bomfim ports and that we have no idea what their new acquisition will be used for. I am not very anxious about the integrity of the Bomfim brand or the evolution of its flavour profile. Presumably the Syms, if indeed they are looking to increase plantings for the SQVP, will try to keep it broadly the same, and just increase the volume they can shift to Tesco. Fine by me.

[AW77]

...the composition of Bomfim ports and that we have no idea what their new acquisition will be used for.

If you look closely at the press article (http://www.harpers.co.uk/news/the-symin ... 63.article) it gives a clue what the new acquisition will be used for:

"It is hoped the higher altitude vines will help add structure and complexity to Dow's port, and go some way to alleviating the impacts of global warming that are having an increasing impact in the region."

I leave it to the experienced port-drinkers around here to fathom this piece of information.

[Andy Velebil]

I read somewhere that there are 20,000 grape producers in the Douro. .

Actually, over 30,000. Which makes your point even more relevant.

The history of the Douro is one of constant ebb and flow. Sure every year some quinta's big and small get sold off, it's what happens in every grape growing region of the world. Yet, given the amount of growers, it has remained relatively stable in the Douro overall these past 100+ years, maybe longer.

One of the biggest issue is the beneficio and the emergence and reliance of table wines being subsided by same. It's a business model that is destined to fail at some point. The question is, when will that be?

[Glenn E.]

Besides BOB?

I don't get the link, Glenn. BOBs are branded in the name of the buyer (retailer), not the shipper who produced them.

But isn't it essentially the same thing, especially for a buyer as large as Tesco?

Tesco sells the BOB wine and would love for you to think that it is "their" wine. Dow is now going to grow and sell Sabordela wine and would love for you to think that it is Bomfim wine. Taylor is now going to sell Krohn wine and would love for you to think that it is Taylor wine. To me, all three are similar.

[Glenn E.]

However, i do think the use of "Quinta" on the label is governed by EU and national Portuguese law.

I believe it is, too. This is one of the reasons that older bottlings of Malvedos say simply that, while newer ones say Quinta dos Malvedos. What I've heard is that the Port has always been made from roughly the same plots of land, but it wasn't until the Symingtons were able to expand Malvedos by purchasing neighboring vineyards that they were able to label the Port as Quinta dos Malvedos. Nothing changed except who owned the vineyards.

[RAYC]

What I've heard is that the Port has always been made from roughly the same plots of land, but it wasn't until the Symingtons were able to expand Malvedos by purchasing neighboring vineyards that they were able to label the Port as Quinta dos Malvedos. Nothing changed except who owned the vineyards.

This is the current position that i've heard put forward, although Lidell's book suggests otherwise for pre-Symington (and perhaps early Symington?) Malvedos - relevant extracts quoted here by Derek.

[DRT]

Besides BOB?

I don't get the link, Glenn. BOBs are branded in the name of the buyer (retailer), not the shipper who produced them.

But isn't it essentially the same thing, especially for a buyer as large as Tesco?

Tesco sells the BOB wine and would love for you to think that it is "their" wine. Dow is now going to grow and sell Sabordela wine and would love for you to think that it is Bomfim wine. Taylor is now going to sell Krohn wine and would love for you to think that it is Taylor wine. To me, all three are similar.

Tesco BOB has "Produced and bottled by Symington Family Estates" on the front label so that it is clear to the consumer what they are buying.

Sabrodela will now be part of Bomfim, but please read above. Such mergers have been happening for centuries. What do you consider to be true Quinta do Noval VP? Is it what was produced before they acquired and integrated Quinta do Marco and part of Quinta do Silval? Which of the three Quinta de Vargellas's is the true Quinta de Vargellas? The sands always shift on this point and anyone with the notion that quintas have permanent and fixed boundaries is not taking account of reality and history of the region.

As for Taylor's re-branding of Krohn's finished (or near-finished) product, I think that is misleading and not at all the same as the two examples above. However, it is not new. Lots of Port shippers do the same thing by buying old wine from the Casa do Douro and selling it as their own. It is why we all of a sudden have lots of different aged white tawny ports kicking around. In fact it could be argued that what Taylor are doing is going back 130 years when, like most shippers, they didn't produce any wine of their own. They purchased wine from the farmers, blended and aged it in Gaia and sold it under their own brand. The difference now is that the market perception is different to what it was 130 years ago. Back then the consumer knew the difference between a shipper and a producer. Now they are the same thing and there is, I think, a general perception that each shippers produces what he sells.

[Glenn E.]

What do you consider to be true Quinta do Noval VP? Is it what was produced before they acquired and integrated Quinta do Marco and part of Quinta do Silval? Which of the three Quinta de Vargellas's is the true Quinta de Vargellas? The sands always shift on this point and anyone with the notion that quintas have permanent and fixed boundaries is not taking account of reality and history of the region.

I'm actually agreeing with you.

I think Owen summed it up nicely:

it means what they say it means. At times this is a farm you could visit, at others it is a wine they did not want to sell under the main label. And that's fine. I thought it had always been meaningless rather than being devalued by the current shenanigans.

I don't think it's meaningless, but I also don't think it's sacrosanct.

[Alex Bridgeman]

There seems to be three threads of conversation going on in this thread, and I'm only going to add to the confusion.

I want to speak up for continuing acquisitions by the big producers - by which I mean Taylor Fladgate, Symingtons, Sogrape and perhaps Noval.

A few years ago, these producers had core production coming from Quintas they owned and controlled. These controlled quintas were at the heart of the quality of the wines they made and sold and were supplemented by grapes bought in from the smaller grape farmers. Many of these grape farmers followed the guidance and advice of the grape buyer and were slowly increasing the quality of the fruit they produced.

Today, grape prices have dropped. Many grape farmers cannot afford to farm their grapes without also having alternative income. Some are abandoning their vineyards as the next generation leave the Douro (and Portugal) seeking new opportunities. There are a handful of new moratorios starting to appear in the Valley. Many farmers who were investing limited time and money into improving quality can no longer afford to do so and the average quality of purchased grapes is not as good today as it was 10 years ago.

Against this background, it is very reasonable for a major producer who is able to raise some capital to use that capital to protect the quality and volume of future grape production. The nurture of the grapes and care of the vineyard can be brought under the direct control of the new owner - quite possibly with the old owner still acting as the farm manager. The former grape buyer is happy that quality and volume are now secured. The old owner is happy that he has been rewarded for the care he has exercised in the past - although he is likely to feel that the price he received for his land and vineyards was not what it was worth, a reluctant seller never is happy that he has received a fair price!

So the result is that the large conglomerate is still using the same grapes to produce the same wines. Nothing has changed, no diversity has been lost. Quality and volume of the brand we know and love has been secured for the future. If these grapes formerly could not have been used to make "Quinta do Bomfim" but now can be, what have we lost? Was there a Quinta do Sabordella that we could have bought in the past? No. Again, I ask what have we lost?

And if the larger volume of secure grapes means that in future vintages there is sufficient volume of Bomfim wine to segment 250 cases of must into a "Bomfim Old Vines Vintage Port" and still make 6,000 cases of Dow vintage port then I would argue that we have actually increased the diversity of port available to us through consolidation of vineyards.

But I might have more sympathy to the loss of diversity argument if it had been an active shipper and wine stocks that had been bought alongside the vineyard. It is a shame to see labels we know and love fade away into memory.

[RAYC]

Tesco BOB has "Produced and bottled by Symington Family Estates" on the front label so that it is clear to the consumer what they are buying.

Labelling things as being "produced and bottled" by SFE does not make things particularly clear and i've never really understood its relevance. There's the slightly confusing situation now where everything released ex-cellars by the Symingtons was apparently "produced and bottled" by SFE, even when old labels from original releases state that the same bottle was produced / bottled / shipped by someone completely different. Vesuvio is different, i believe, and continues to state "Soc. Agric. da Quinta do Vesuvio" as the producer and bottler.

[RAYC]

If these grapes formerly could not have been used to make "Quinta do Bomfim" but now can be, what have we lost? Was there a Quinta do Sabordella that we could have bought in the past? No. Again, I ask what have we lost?

Labelling wines as being from a "Chateau", "Weingut", "Quinta" or any other form of estate or holding should, in my opinion, indicate a connection between the wine and the land. Indeed, winemakers across Europe have lobbied for legal protection so that this is the case (or perhaps this was just the French leading the charge with their romantic notions of "terroir"). If the concept of a "Quinta" is so malleable that its area under vine can be increased by over 50% by acquisition yet still be called the same, to my mind the whole notion of SQVP becomes meaningless. That's what i think is lost

Though perhaps the rise of ports associated with specific vineyard plots means the idea of a "Quinta" wine is already passé.

[DRT]

If these grapes formerly could not have been used to make "Quinta do Bomfim" but now can be, what have we lost? Was there a Quinta do Sabordella that we could have bought in the past? No. Again, I ask what have we lost?

If the concept of a "Quinta" is so malleable that its area under vine can be increased by over 50% by acquisition yet still be called the same, to my mind the whole notion of SQVP becomes meaningless. That's what i think is lost

It is impossible to lose something that you never had. I don't think there has ever been a point in the history of Port production where clear lines could be drawn around what was and was not a true SQVP. That situation hasn't changed as a result of this acquisition, so what has been lost is a bit of romance about what we thought we had.

[LGTrotter]

Labelling wines as being from a "Chateau", "Weingut", "Quinta" or any other form of estate or holding should, in my opinion, indicate a connection between the wine and the land.

I am not sure about 'Wiengut' but I have never entertained the notion that all the Chateaux mentioned on bottles were quite as bucolic as the picture on the label suggested and I would say the same is true of Quinta. There are of course quality producers where it does mean something.

[DRT]

What Alex said +1.