Port and tax

Anything to do with Port.
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jdaw1
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Port and tax

Post by jdaw1 »

If one were to sell Port, at a profit, is that taxable?

Following an email correspondence with AHB, in which he told me that Port was subject to Capital Gains Tax, I have investigated the case for the UK.
[url=http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/45/enacted]Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992, §45(1)[/url], wrote:! no chargeable gain shall accrue on the disposal of, or of an interest in, an asset which is tangible movable property and which is a wasting asset.
So CGT doesn’t apply to a ‟wasting asset”.
[url=http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/44/enacted]Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992, §44(1)[/url], wrote:In this Chapter ‟wasting asset” means an asset with a predictable life not exceeding 50 years
The standard to apply is whether it has ‟a predictable life not exceeding 50 years”.
HMR&C Guidance Note, dated August 1999 and entitled [url=http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cgmanual/cg76901.htm]CG76901 - Wasting assets: wines and spirits[/url], wrote:We have received a number of enquiries recently about the Capital Gains Tax treatment of bottles of wines, particularly "fine" wines, and spirits. This article sets out the position for transactions where the correct charge is to Capital Gains Tax. It is written on the premise that any transactions by private individuals involving the acquisition and disposal of such wines are not regarded as "trading" or an "adventure in the nature of trade" within the charge to Income Tax under Case I of Schedule D.

Where bottled wine is purchased, each bottle is a chattel for Capital Gains Tax purposes. As gains on the disposal of chattels which are also wasting assets are generally exempt from Capital Gains Tax, Section 45(1) Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992 (TCGA), then the first question is whether bottled wine is a wasting asset or not.

For Capital Gains Tax purposes a wasting asset is one whose predictable life, from the point of view of the person acquiring it, does not exceed 50 years, Section 44(1) TCGA. Whilst this definition would clearly apply to cheap table wine which may turn to vinegar within a relatively short period, even in unopened bottles, our view is that it would certainly not apply to port and other fortified wines which are generally recognised to have a very long storage life.

Between these extremes, there are a number of fine wines which are quite drinkable after a substantial period although of course the taste alters over that time. With these the basic consideration, in our view, is whether the wine has turned to vinegar or has merely matured. Of course in practice, most wine is drunk well below the age of 50 years and in that sense it is very difficult to consider the issue in isolation. However, where the facts justify it, we would normally contend that wine is not a wasting asset if it appears to be fine wine which not unusually is kept (or some samples of which are kept) for substantial periods sometimes well in excess of 50 years.
So HMR&C think that CGT applies to Port because ‟port and other fortified wines ! are generally recognised to have a very long storage life.”

But there is room for squabbling about this guidance note. Let’s consider Port from 1963. Would a 1963 bought at harvest (yes, I know, but hush) still be within the ‟predictable life” mentioned in the Act. Yes, some bottles of 1963 are delicious. But more are showing themselves to be tired, and some are well past it. So it depends on the purpose of the asset. Purposes to consider include:
  1. To reliably give drinking pleasure;
  2. To have some chance of giving drinking pleasure;
  3. To be of curiosity value.
Consider those three in the context of:
[url=http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/44/enacted]Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992, §44(3)[/url], wrote:The question what is the predictable life of an asset, and the question what is its predictable residual or scrap value at the end of that life, if any, shall, so far as those questions are not immediately answered by the nature of the asset, be taken, in relation to any disposal of the asset, as they were known or ascertainable at the time when the asset was acquired or provided by the person making the disposal.
Fifty-year-old Port from a big year fails the first of these, but passes the second and third. So it is at least arguable that the guidance note is wrong and that Port is not taxable. Good luck trying that.

Further, consider ‟which not unusually is kept (or some samples of which are kept) for substantial periods sometimes well in excess of 50 years.” The 1963 declaration was massive. What proportion of those tens of thousands of dozen are still in cellars? Probably single digits of percentage points. Compare that to ‟not unusually is kept”. Of course, collectors collect anything and everything. But those buying Port for its purpose, say, the Cambridge and Oxford colleges, finished their 1963 Vintage in the 1990s, at an age of about 30 years. So it could even be argued that the Guidance Note is internally inconsistent.

The rules are sufficiently non-obvious that even the Financial Times has them wrong.
The FT, in an article entitled [url=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9908dc3a-d068-11df-afe1-00144feabdc0.html]HM Revenue targets wine cellars[/url] and dated 5 Oct 2010, wrote:Fine wines under fifty years old are exempt from CGT as the Revenue considers them a ‟wasting asset”.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port and tax

Post by jdaw1 »

Please do post the rules for other jurisdictions.
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DRT
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Re: Port and tax

Post by DRT »

It is my understanding that the reason why fine wines (including Port) cannot be invested in a pension scheme or tax wrapper is because they are perishable assets. HMRC cannot have it both ways. If Port is considered to be non-perishable we should be able to invest it in a vehicle that avoids tax on the purchase and growth of the asset value, such as a SIPP or SSAS.

Your mission is to take this argument to them and help us save duty and VAT on all the port we buy and CGT if we ever sell it.

What is the situation with Inheritance Tax?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
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jdaw1
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Re: Port and tax

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DRT wrote:It is my understanding that the reason why fine wines (including Port) cannot be invested in a pension scheme or tax wrapper is because they are perishable assets.
Do you know precisely which rule is the trouble?
DRT wrote:HMRC cannot have it both ways.
Was this meant seriously?
Glenn E.
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Re: Port and tax

Post by Glenn E. »

It seems to me that a "wasting asset" should be determined from the point of purchase. While one could argue back and forth about whether the purchase of a 2011 Vintage Port may or may not be a wasting asset in 2013, surely it is obvious that the purchase of a 1963 Vintage Port in 2013 is a wasting asset?
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jdaw1
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Re: Port and tax

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Glenn E. wrote:It seems to me that a "wasting asset" should be determined from the point of purchase. While one could argue back and forth about whether the purchase of a 2011 Vintage Port may or may not be a wasting asset in 2013, surely it is obvious that the purchase of a 1963 Vintage Port in 2013 is a wasting asset?
Agreed. I was using the current state of the ’63 to judge whether the ‟predictable life” of 2011 exceeds 50 years. And the answer is: depends on what is meant.
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DRT
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Re: Port and tax

Post by DRT »

jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:It is my understanding that the reason why fine wines (including Port) cannot be invested in a pension scheme or tax wrapper is because they are perishable assets.
Do you know precisely which rule is the trouble?
No, but I will try to find out.
jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:HMRC cannot have it both ways.
Was this meant seriously?
Not really, but I wanted to make the point.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
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DRT
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Re: Port and tax

Post by DRT »

DRT wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:It is my understanding that the reason why fine wines (including Port) cannot be invested in a pension scheme or tax wrapper is because they are perishable assets.
Do you know precisely which rule is the trouble?
No, but I will try to find out.
Guidance note IR76 seems to be the problem, but it excludes fine wine for being "a personal chattel".
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
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jdaw1
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Re: Port and tax

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DRT wrote:Guidance note IR76 seems to be the problem, but it excludes fine wine for being "a personal chattel".
Taken from an archive website, not from HMRC’s current website. Which suggests that the note is obsolete.
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Re: Port and tax

Post by DRT »

Then perhaps this?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Glenn E.
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Re: Port and tax

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:It seems to me that a "wasting asset" should be determined from the point of purchase. While one could argue back and forth about whether the purchase of a 2011 Vintage Port may or may not be a wasting asset in 2013, surely it is obvious that the purchase of a 1963 Vintage Port in 2013 is a wasting asset?
Agreed. I was using the current state of the ’63 to judge whether the ‟predictable life” of 2011 exceeds 50 years. And the answer is: depends on what is meant.
Right. So for argument's sake, 1963 and 2011 are obvious. We'll ignore the fact that certain Port "experts" have stated that 2011s will "mature" in 15 years and that their "drinking window" ends at 35 years old. :roll:

What about 1970? 2003? Still obvious? Okay, how about 1985?

On second thought, perhaps we should get behind those Port "experts" on this. One could probably make a pretty good case in an argument with the government that your purchase was based on expert ratings which indicated a 35-year life.
Glenn Elliott
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Re: Port and tax

Post by DRT »

The reality of this is that there are very few VPs that will go on improving in quality after five decades, but almost all of them will significantly increase in value after (or a decade before) passing that milestone.

By way of example, Royal Oporto 1970 is available at £40 per bottle. Royal Oporto 1945 is ten times that price. I know which one I would rather taste, even if they were both £10 per bottle. Is it fair to charge tax on the growth in value on wines that are well past their best? No, it isn't.

HRMC need a port tasting committee. The committee members should be paid vast sums of money to evaluate mature vintage port and inform decisions about whether or not particular Port collections should be considered taxable.

The committee requires volunteers.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
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djewesbury
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Re: Port and tax

Post by djewesbury »

DRT wrote:The committee requires volunteers.
In reality, it only requires one volunteer, and a slew of appointees.
Daniel J.
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Re: Port and tax

Post by PhilW »

jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:It is my understanding that the reason why fine wines (including Port) cannot be invested in a pension scheme or tax wrapper is because they are perishable assets.
Do you know precisely which rule is the trouble?
DRT wrote:Then perhaps this?
That rule does not say that fine wines cannot be invested in; rather it says that there are tax charges associated with so doing - from here:
Sections 174A, 185A to 185I, 273ZA and Schedule 29A Finance Act 2004 make provision for tax charges where an investment regulated pension scheme holds investments that are taxable property.

Taxable property consists of residential property and most tangible moveable assets. Residential property can be in the UK or elsewhere and is a building or structure, including associated land, that is used or suitable for use as a dwelling. Tangible moveable property are things that you can touch and move. It includes assets such as art, antiques, jewellery, fine wine, classic cars and yachts.
I didn't go so far as to read the Finance Act to identify the level of such charges...
DRT wrote:HRMC need a port tasting committee. The committee members should be paid vast sums of money to evaluate mature vintage port and inform decisions about whether or not particular Port collections should be considered taxable.

The committee requires volunteers.
:D
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