Drawing old corks in one piece..

[uncle tom]

A week ago I decanted a Croft '66. As it had one of those heavy plastic capsules, I steamed the capsule to soften it before flicking it off. I then drew the cork in one piece. I vaguely recalled having had a good result with the cork on the previous occasion I'd opened a bottle with a plastic capsule.

Do these capsules preserve the corks better? - was it the steam? - was it coincidence?

Last night I opened a Cockburn '67, a Berry's bottling with foil capsule. As I offered up the corkscrew, I noticed that the top of the cork was very soft, and knew what was going to happen..

I stopped and put the kettle on, and steamed the neck of the bottle for about 30 seconds, twisting the bottle so the steam heated all round the neck, after which the top of the neck was hot, but the shoulder remained cool.

I then inserted a long corkscrew that went right through the cork, and pulled gently - the cork slid out in one piece, and with very little resistance.

I'm cautiously theorising that:

a) The heat expands the glass, reducing the grip on the cork

and

b) The cork softens and becomes more pliable when heated

It may also be that the heat makes the cork sweat a little, lubricating it's exit from the bottle.

Whatever - I'm off to the tropics for a while now, and won't have the opportunity to test this theory further until next month; but I thought i'd share this observation, so others can give it a try..

[LGTrotter]

I have a feeling that the corks stick to the neck, perhaps some port drying in the cork produces this effect. I wonder if the warming allows this port 'glue' to soften enough to release the cork as well as just the thermal expansion.

[djewesbury]

I have a feeling that the corks stick to the neck, perhaps some port drying in the cork produces this effect. I wonder if the warming allows this port 'glue' to soften enough to release the cork as well as just the thermal expansion.

Indeed. We discovered elsewhere that the expansion of the glass would be minimal, perhaps not even observable. Much more likely that sticky deposits around the cork are being loosened or dissolved and the cork is no longer adhering to the neck.

[LGTrotter]

I am still of the opinion that the thermal expansion does make a difference whatever the micrometers might say. What I neglected to say in the previous post was the instructions on how to get those uniquely irritating thick plastic capsules off I shall treasure, they seem to only afflict bottles from the sixties but I always end up stirring up the crust in my efforts to remove them.

[SushiNorth]

I'm notorious for breaking corks, apparently, and will have to give this try the next time I face a challenging cork. I am suspicious that your technique is causing the glass to expand, if only a little, and that expansion is causing it to pull away from the cork enough to break the crusty glue that has formed.

Now, what I'd REALLY like is a longer corkscrew, a wider corkscrew, or a corkscrew that functioned like a harpoon, with a toggle at one end.

[DRT]

Much more likely that sticky deposits around the cork are being loosened or dissolved and the cork is no longer adhering to the neck.

This seems like the most likely explanation to me. Glass expansion is feasible but as the cork is pliable would it not simply expand with the glass and still be stuck? The melting or softening of sticky deposits between the cork and glass just seems to make more sense to me. Whatever the reason, let's hope it works and wasn't just a one-off!

[SushiNorth]

Much more likely that sticky deposits around the cork are being loosened or dissolved and the cork is no longer adhering to the neck.

This seems like the most likely explanation to me. Glass expansion is feasible but as the cork is pliable would it not simply expand with the glass and still be stuck? The melting or softening of sticky deposits between the cork and glass just seems to make more sense to me. Whatever the reason, let's hope it works and wasn't just a one-off!

Perhaps one way to test all of this is to first insert the corkscrew, and then test what is going on with the bottle neck hot. Another might be to try this on a young bottle, or even a white-wine bottle that's been upright.

[JB vintage]

First of all- great that you have found a way to pull the cork in one piece. That is very important if you want to read the text on the cork of an unknown bottle.

Regarding the reason it works, that is less important. However, a change in diameter in the order of 0.01 mm is much less than 0.1% of the diameter and the effect of that must be much less than the adhesive force of the deposit of several decades around the cork. As the cork is so fragile after more than 4 decades or so, the expansion of the diameter would only make the cork crack even more, as the resistance in the cork is much less than the resistance between the cork and the glass. The most probable explanation is that the heat alters the friction between the cork and the glass, probably by dissolving the sticky deposits.

If you are more interested in avoiding cork in the wine than reading possible text on the cork, I can recommend a special cork puller with two "pegs". I do not know if there is an official name for this device but I have found several aliases on the net: "Two-prong Cork Puller", "Ah-so" or "Waiter's Friend". If you do not know this type of cork puller you can see an example at http://www.amazon.com/kitchen-dining/dp/B0002WZR4K
I use it with very good result pulling the cork in one piece, but on very old corks the text directly under the two pegs a usually destroyed.

Thank you, Uncle Tom, for a very good advice, that I will definitely try next time I need to read the text on the cork.

PS I have heard that it is called the "waiter's friend" because it allows the waiter to pull the cork, replace the expensive content with something less expensive, and then put the cork back without a trace. "Ah-so" is what many people say when shown how to use it.

[djewesbury]

Regarding the reason it works, that is less important. However, a change in diameter in the order of 0.01 mm is much less than 0.1% of the diameter and the effect of that must be much less than the adhesive force of the deposit of several decades around the cork. As the cork is so fragile after more than 4 decades or so, the expansion of the diameter would only make the cork crack even more, as the resistance in the cork is much less than the resistance between the cork and the glass. The most probable explanation is that the heat alters the friction between the cork and the glass, probably by dissolving the sticky deposits.

Quite so.

PS I have heard that it is called the "waiter's friend" because it allows the waiter to pull the cork, replace the expensive content with something less expensive, and then put the cork back without a trace. "Ah-so" is what many people say when shown how to use it.

We also know it as the 'Butler's Friend' or even the 'Dishonest Butler' because of the possibility of putting the cork back in once one has had a few sips.

[DRT]

I have never heard of an Ah-so being described as a Waiter's Friend.

[g-man]

Regarding the reason it works, that is less important. However, a change in diameter in the order of 0.01 mm is much less than 0.1% of the diameter and the effect of that must be much less than the adhesive force of the deposit of several decades around the cork. As the cork is so fragile after more than 4 decades or so, the expansion of the diameter would only make the cork crack even more, as the resistance in the cork is much less than the resistance between the cork and the glass. The most probable explanation is that the heat alters the friction between the cork and the glass, probably by dissolving the sticky deposits.

Quite so.

PS I have heard that it is called the "waiter's friend" because it allows the waiter to pull the cork, replace the expensive content with something less expensive, and then put the cork back without a trace. "Ah-so" is what many people say when shown how to use it.

We also know it as the 'Butler's Friend' or even the 'Dishonest Butler' because of the possibility of putting the cork back in once one has had a few sips.

keep up with the times look up Coravin (no relations)

I've had mix success witht he ah so,

older port tends to be too sticky for the ah so to be able to wiggle down and grab the cork. That or the cork is too crumbly that you pretty much ruin any marking the cork may have if you went down the sides where the house/vintage is

[djewesbury]

keep up with the times look up Coravin (no relations)

Whoa.. Don't like the look of that. The cork 'reseals itself'? Really..?

[g-man]

keep up with the times look up Coravin (no relations)

Whoa.. Don't like the look of that. The cork 'reseals itself'? Really..?

i dont think my stealing butler would care

[JB vintage]

I did google Coravin and it was quite interesting to see. For newer corks I would think that it reseals perfectly. However, when the cork is 40 years plus it is not that elastic anymore and I would definitely not try to sip a glass and put the bottle back. The risk for air to be sucked in by the under pressure created in the bottle must be quite big; alternatively for the wine to leak through the small hole. Also with old corks you have the risk that the whole cork is sucked in the the bottle from the under pressure.

Has anyone any experience with the Coravine? I do not think I would use it in any case but it would be interesting to know.

[jdaw1]

We need to do an experiment. Can we borrow a Coravin? Then we use it to access and taste half a bottle of, say Graham 1970, taking detailed notes. Then a month later we drink the remainder of the bottle, carefully comparing.

[DRT]

we use it to access and taste half a bottle of, say Graham 1970

[DRT]

I have just read all the blurb on the Coravin website. This device has the potential to overcome even the most resolute port-lover's ability to leave special bottles for special occasions. Please don't ever let me have one.

[PhilW]

we use it to access and taste half a bottle of, say Graham 1970

[RAYC]

It's an intriguing idea (although i'm not sure i fully understand how this words - it lets inert gas in when pouring, then sucks it all out to create a vacuum when you have finished pouring?). I can see it might work rather nicely on eg: a bottle of Cloudy Bay sauv blanc that you want to drink over the week.

With old reds / port i'm not so sure - both for the reasons stated above plus also decanting / sediment issues.T-stoppers could also be problematic, otherwise i'd have said this might work really nicely for 20yo tawnies!

[jdaw1]

It's an intriguing idea (although i'm not sure i fully understand how this words - it lets inert gas in when pouring, then sucks it all out to create a vacuum when you have finished pouring?).

Inject into bottle about 8cl of argon (at 1 bar). Then switch the valve setting, and out comes about 8cl of liquid. Bottle restored to 1 bar, with argon exchanged for liquid.

we use it to access and taste half a bottle of, say Graham 1970

With only half a bottle available for the experiment, attendance should be restricted to those who take tasting notes.

[djewesbury]

We need to do an experiment. Can we borrow a Coravin? Then we use it to access and taste half a bottle of, say Graham 1970, taking detailed notes. Then a month later we drink the remainder of the bottle, carefully comparing.

With only half a bottle available for the experiment, attendance should be restricted to those who take tasting notes.

I agree. Good job you have that bottle in the house. I'm in. I'm not sure if there's room for any others now..

[g-man]

i'm acutlaly going to ask a colleague if i could borrow his after his 1 month experiment

[jdaw1]

put the kettle on, and steamed the neck of the bottle for about 30 seconds, twisting the bottle so the steam heated all round the neck, after which the top of the neck was hot, but the shoulder remained cool.

I then inserted a long corkscrew that went right through the cork, and pulled gently - the cork slid out in one piece, and with very little resistance.

My halves of Dow Bomfim 1988 and 1990 have useless corks that have crumbled every time.

Barely ten minutes ago, starting with a half of Dow Bomfim 1990, removed capsule, used corkscrew, and the useless cork crumbled.

Second half of Dow Bomfim 1990, removed capsule, applied steam for about thirty seconds, used corkscrew, and it came out whole. That might be the first whole cork from that, now finished, dozen halves.

Very interesting.

[djewesbury]

My halves of Dow Bomfim 1988 and 1990 have useless corks that have crumbled every time.

Barely ten minutes ago, starting with a half of Dow Bomfim 1990, removed capsule, used corkscrew, and the useless cork crumbled.

Second half of Dow Bomfim 1990, removed capsule, applied steam for about thirty seconds, used corkscrew, and it came out whole. That might be the first whole cork from that, now finished, dozen halves.

Very interesting.

I can't help thinking that the simple introduction of moisture into a poor-quality, dried-out cork is enough to make it bind together sufficiently long for it to be drawn. It sounds like your Bomfims wouldn't be suffering from the corks being stuck to the neck, just from their being excessively brittle. Good, this is an all-round useful discovery. Well done Tom and !

[jdaw1]

I can't help thinking that the simple introduction of moisture into a poor-quality, dried-out cork is enough to make it bind together sufficiently long for it to be drawn. It sounds like your Bomfims wouldn't be suffering from the corks being stuck to the neck, just from their being excessively brittle.

The bottle was held facing away from the steam, which was directed at neck rather than cork. Moisture would not have gone far into the cork, if at all. And the glass did become hot. From doing it my suspicion is a lessening of the stickiness between cork and glass.

But I agree with your second point: gold star to Tom

[djewesbury]

I can't help thinking that the simple introduction of moisture into a poor-quality, dried-out cork is enough to make it bind together sufficiently long for it to be drawn. It sounds like your Bomfims wouldn't be suffering from the corks being stuck to the neck, just from their being excessively brittle.

The bottle was held facing away from the steam, which was directed at neck rather than cork. Moisture would not have gone far into the cork, if at all. And the glass did become hot. From doing it my suspicion is a lessening of the stickiness between cork and glass.

But I agree with your second point: gold star to Tom

Very interesting. We should really write this up and publish it in the International Journal of Port Wine Consumption (IJPWC). We'll need to do lots of experiments to guarantee repeatability of the findings, of course.

[DRT]

It sounds like your Bomfims wouldn't be suffering from the corks being stuck to the neck, just from their being excessively brittle.

I also have some of these bottles and have suffered the same experience as JDAW. When the corkscrew pulls the centre out of the cork it then takes considerable effort to chip the side walls of cork from inside the neck of the bottle. The corks are indeed stuck to the neck, not just dried and brittle.

[RAYC]

A whole world of new wine-related gadgets just opened up! Imagine one of these, but with a clamp attachment that allows steam to be blasted on the neck from all directions in a concentrated burst (no need to disturb sediment when steaming...).

[RAYC]

Interesting that Tom's new steam-based solution is almost the total opposite of his previous liquid nitrogen cork-freezing experiment!

Aside from completely re-engineering the conventional corkscrew, I'm going to try a simple experiment using a liquid nitrogen canister, of the type used by plumbers to freeze pipes.
My theory is that if I sink a corkscrew into a cork that offers little resistance, is clearly decayed, and therefore likely to fail, I will leave the corkscrew in situ and squirt the top of it with the nitrogen, where it emerges from the cork.
Metal conducts heat (and cold) very well. This stuff is so incredibly cold it will very quickly freeze the cork around the screw. A damp cloth around the neck of the bottle should make sure the cork doesn't freeze onto the glass.
The semi frozen cork should (in theory!) be easier to withdraw.
I have a Croft '55 that has a failing cork and needs to be drunk or re-corked.
As soon as I can get hold of a nitrogen canister, I will put the theory to the test.
If it fails, I will console myself with the contents of the bottle!
Will report!

****

Nitrogen boils at - 196 C, which is fantastically cold. The thermal conductivity of all metals is very high compared to cork, but even there the temperature gradient should produce the desired result within a minute or two.
The biggest potential hazards with my theory seem to be;
a) Accidental frostbite - I'll wear gloves!
and
b) Rendering the metal of the corkscrew so cold that it becomes brittle.
I plan to wrap a wet towel round the neck of the bottle immediately after squirting, and then again when I see the moisture left behind start to freeze.

****

Well, I don't have Croft '55 all over the kitchen floor
I took some photos, but have no idea how to post .jpg's here - perhaps someone can tell me!
I chipped off the old wax and cleaned the top of the bottle.
I then blasted the top of the corkscrew until both it and the top of the cork was heavily frosted.
After a minute or so I breathed on the neck of the bottle, and saw ice form, so I wrapped the neck in a wet teatowel for a few seconds before pulling the cork.
Two thirds of it slid out graciously, nicely frozen, but I'd been too hasty - the bottom part remained in situ and had not frozen
I managed to tease out virtually all that remained, and immediately re-corked it. I had tried sterilsing a couple of corks in boiling water, but they swelled up so much I couldn't get them in the machine - so I used a dry cork instead.
The machine required a lot of downward force - - and left the new cork slightly proud of the bottle - which is irritating - I don't think I did anything wrong though...
I shall now leave the bottle upright for a few days to let the cork settle before laying it down.

[RAYC]

older port tends to be too sticky for the ah so to be able to wiggle down and grab the cork. That or the cork is too crumbly that you pretty much ruin any marking the cork may have if you went down the sides where the house/vintage is

I think this was the purpose of Peter Week's (of FTLOP) modifications - see link

[uncle tom]

That was a while ago now..!

I didn't take the freezing idea forward - too much hassle..

A problem I found with injecting nitrogen to lift corks, which the Coravin gizmo is likely to suffer from as well; is cork finding it's way up the needle and blocking it.

I tried filing a side hole in the needle, which works reasonably well, but the life expectancy of the needles was not very long, as the side hole weakened it.

If anyone wants to play with gas injection, I have a box of 3" veterinary needles, that must have been intended for giving jabs to elephants!

[jdaw1]

Nosed the DB90 from the tall decanter the one opened first, without heat. Hmmm. Not happy. Luckily there’s another half in the squat decanter. Hmmm. Perhaps it would be better to start with the port in the tall decanter.

[JB vintage]

I did try the steam method to pull the cork today. I had a bottle of red wine and the cork was completely jammed. When I tried to pull it the normal way, the only thing that happened was that the screw pulled a bit of cork in the middle of the cork, but around the glass it was completely fixed. Then I steamed the neck and the glass around the cork. I left the corkscrew in place during the whole time. After steaming for 40 seconds or so I had a new go at it and pulled the cork in one piece!!!! It works much better than I had expected.

Thank you for a great advice!

[CaliforniaBrad]

You could skip the steam and go straight to the blowtorch: http://youtu.be/owIKJwBFUYY

[uncle tom]

With a little patience, care, and steam, I have just pulled a Noval '50 cork in one piece.

Despite being a leaky and very ullaged bottle, the wine is incredibly dark - more like a 25yr old VP than a 63yr old.

First sip was promising..

[g-man]

btw

does dipping the neck/running the neck with hot water have the same effect?

[DRT]

does dipping the neck/running the neck with hot water have the same effect?

In order to do that the bottle would need to be inverted. If the water is too hot and the neck snaps your port would end up in the sink. I think the steam option is probably less of a shock to the glass and has the benefit that it can be done with the bottle almost upright.

[jdaw1]

Very good logic.

[g-man]

does dipping the neck/running the neck with hot water have the same effect?

In order to do that the bottle would need to be inverted. If the water is too hot and the neck snaps your port would end up in the sink. I think the steam option is probably less of a shock to the glass and has the benefit that it can be done with the bottle almost upright.

not if you just held the bottle up and ran it under hot water no?

i'm tryign to find options if i'm out at a restaurant and the bar area doens't have a steamer.

[DRT]

not if you just held the bottle up and ran it under hot water no?

It doesn't sound like a good idea to me. If you run a hot tap directly onto the top of an upright bottle you risk pouring water straight into the port if the cork isn't forming a good seal.

[g-man]

not if you just held the bottle up and ran it under hot water no?

It doesn't sound like a good idea to me. If you run a hot tap directly onto the top of an upright bottle you risk pouring water straight into the port if the cork isn't forming a good seal.

would the water displace teh wine that may have ullaged out?

is that the concept of heating the neck?

[DRT]

would the water displace teh wine that may have ullaged out?

is that the concept of heating the neck?

I have no idea. It just doesn't sound like a good idea. If you are keen on doing this why not try it and report back.

[g-man]

the query was if anyone else has tried this

[djewesbury]

More on Coravin from Jancis. It uses argon (noble and inert, like me) and not nitrogen.