Port brand abbreviations

[flash_uk]

Pl. Pm easily confused with Pn.

I was going to say Pm, as Pl is easily confused with Pi

[jdaw1]

Palmer? Pl or Pm?

I’m neutral between them. Is anybody willing to break the tie?

[M.Charlton]

Palmer? Pl or Pm?

I’m neutral between them. Is anybody willing to break the tie?

FTW, Pm.

[winesecretary]

I concede gracefully - Pm it is.

[PhilW]

Pl. Pm easily confused with Pn.

I was going to say Pm, as Pl is easily confused with Pi

In agreement with Mike.

[jdaw1]

Pm it is: done.

[Glenn E.]

Pm it is: done.

Late to the party, but either worked for me.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Pm it is: done.

But have they made more than three vintages?

Wine Searcher suggests they have only made 2015 and 2017. I haven’t looked through our vintage lists, but the question remains unanswered.

[jdaw1]

But have they made more than three vintages?

unless we wish to extend to colheitas now.

That is a fair question. We do seem to have strayed into colheita-land, so much that signposts would probably be welcome.

[Glenn E.]

unless we wish to extend to colheitas now.

That is a fair question. We do seem to have strayed into colheita-land, so much that signposts would probably be welcome.

That begs the question, what is the purpose of the brand abbreviations?

I dare guess that most tastings in the UK are VP-related. In that case, no abbreviations for Colheitas are really necessary. Especially when one also considers that most Colheita producers also produce VP and likely already have an abbreviation.

But if the purpose is to be able to reliably identify producers (most often on a tasting placemat, but also elsewhere), then we should have abbreviations for producers of Colheitas as well.

But... that creates a further question. How does one distinguish between a VP and a Colheita from the same producer and the same year? Or should that be left to context (in a forum post) or AboveTitles / BelowTitles on a placemat?

[Alex Bridgeman]

I always use a lower case “c” after the shipper / year abbreviation to denote a colheita.

Thus N03 and N03c would represent Quinta do Noval 2003 Vintage Port and Quinta do Noval 2003 Colheita Port.

This has the simplicity of being brief but easy to understand.

[jdaw1]

In any year a producer might make a VP, a colheita, an LBV, a crusted, perhaps even a white. Surely their purpose is to give a role and meaning to the placemat software’s Abovetitles, Belowtitles, and Overtitles.

[jdaw1]

Vista Alegre and its possible abbreviation VA were discussed above, without a conclusion being definitely reached. (Also, cross link to Justin K in the Latest buy thread.)

Though VA is obvious, it is, as MigSU correctly wrote, “an unfortunate abbreviation”. Perhaps we should go in a slightly different direction: could people accept Al or Ag? My preference, not strongly held, is for the first of these: Al. Please choose one of these two — or argue for something else.

Currently, the list has few A’s:

A = J. H. Andresen
Ad = Adam

[PhilW]

Still not VP, never mind 3+ vintages of VP, so for me no fixed abbreviation.

That said, if the consensus thinks otherwise, then I would very strongly favour use of VA over the suggested alternatives.

[jdaw1]

Still not VP, never mind 3+ vintages of VP, so for me no fixed abbreviation.

This page mentions Vista Alegre vintages 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2005, and 2000.


And while at it, this page mentions Quinta de Valle Longo, vintages 2018, 2017, and 2011. My preference is Lg, but Ln should be mentioned, even if only to be curtly dismissed. Other L’s:

Lc = Quinta das Liceiras
Lm = Quinta das Lamelas

[PhilW]

Still not VP, never mind 3+ vintages of VP, so for me no fixed abbreviation.

This page mentions Vista Alegre vintages 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2005, and 2000.

Fair. VA.

And while at it, this page mentions Quinta de Valle Longo, vintages 2018, 2017, and 2011. My preference is Lg, but Ln should be mentioned, even if only to be curtly dismissed. Other L’s:

Lc = Quinta das Liceiras
Lm = Quinta das Lamelas

I'd have gone for VL (despite Vl) or VLn, but not strongly felt.

[jdaw1]

I would very strongly favour use of VA over the suggested alternatives.

VA.

I'd have gone for VL (despite Vl) or VLn, but not strongly felt.

We disagree. There are ten V’s, and only two each for A’s and L’s. For my palate there’s better distinctiveness in favouring the rarely-used letters (Al, Lg).

Edit: further, words such as Vista and Valle are low-information widespread almost-generic words. Not to the same extent as ‘Quinta’, but heading in that direction. Hence should be dropped for the abbreviations, which should be anti-generic .

Self-evidently, we lack consensus. Perhaps others have strong opinions.

[Alex Bridgeman]

For Vista Alegre, I would prefer VAl. As an abbreviation, I think VAl (or V Al) is an intuitive abbreviation of Vista Alegre or of their brand name of Vallegre.

(I love that my Myers Briggs personality profile - INFP - is probably as far as it is possible to be opposite to JDAW's.)

For Valle Longo, VL is — for me — the obvious choice.

And, ahem, while words such as Boa, Vista, Vale, Valle, Bom, etc. are low value words, when combined with the other word in the title of the Quinta they are absolutely essential in the naming of the exact location. We're not trying to create an alternative to What 3 Words here!

[PhilW]

I'd be happy with VAl and VL respectively.

[Glenn E.]

That said, if the consensus thinks otherwise, then I would very strongly favour use of VA over the suggested alternatives.

I agree.

I prefer VA as it currently stands, but would accept VAl as an alternative. I am unconcerned with the association with volatile acidity.

VL and anything not starting with 'V' are just... wrong. The brand is not "Vista 'Legre" or "Alegre". If you put "Al" or "Lg" on a placemat, I wouldn't have the slightest idea what company you were talking about. Part of the duty of an abbreviation is that it be reasonably apparent what it abbreviates. "Al" and "Lg" fail that test.

[Glenn E.]

And while at it, this page mentions Quinta de Valle Longo, vintages 2018, 2017, and 2011. My preference is Lg, but Ln should be mentioned, even if only to be curtly dismissed. Other L’s:

Lc = Quinta das Liceiras
Lm = Quinta das Lamelas

I realized that I missed this earlier.

I think the best abbreviation here would be VL, though both VLn and VLg are suitable as well. Any of the 3 would be fine with me.

[jdaw1]

I would prefer VAl.

For Valle Longo, VL is — for me — the obvious choice.

I'd be happy with VAl and VL respectively.

would accept VAl as an alternative.

I think the best abbreviation here would be VL

I don’t love the consensus, but it’s acceptable.

Hence, unless there is strong cogent objection, soon, the decision is:
VAl = Vista Alegre
VL = Quinta de Valle Longo

[jdaw1]

(I love that my Myers Briggs personality profile - INFP - is probably as far as it is possible to be opposite to JDAW's.)

With only slight interest do I note your delight at being the opposite of me. Doubtless there is a personality type that would be upset, but not one that I have.

[flash_uk]

(I love that my Myers Briggs personality profile - INFP - is probably as far as it is possible to be opposite to JDAW's.)

With only slight interest do I note your delight at being the opposite of me. Doubtless there is a personality type that would be upset, but not one that I have.

Over time I have reached the conclusion that Myers Briggs and astrology are siblings.

[jdaw1]

VAl = Vista Alegre
VL = Quinta de Valle Longo

Done.

[Alex Bridgeman]

(I love that my Myers Briggs personality profile - INFP - is probably as far as it is possible to be opposite to JDAW's.)

With only slight interest do I note your delight at being the opposite of me. Doubtless there is a personality type that would be upset, but not one that I have.

Over time I have reached the conclusion that Myers Briggs and astrology are siblings.

It’s only because of your star sign that you took so long to conclude that. If you’d been a Scorpio (or an INFP) you would have intuitively known that from birth.

[PhilW]

Elsewhere, Gl has been proposed as abbreviation for Gilbert.
Generally I'm less a fan of lower-case l given potential confusion with upper-case I; however we do have precedent such as Dl = Dalva, and minimal confusion potential in this particular case anyway.
So, Gl for Gilbert then?

[Rummy]

Elsewhere, Gl has been proposed as abbreviation for Gilbert.
Generally I'm less a fan of lower-case l given potential confusion with upper-case I; however we do have precedent such as Dl = Dalva, and minimal confusion potential in this particular case anyway.
So, Gl for Gilbert then?

Confusion potential confirmed, as my suggestion was GI (capital g, capital i). Would Gi be a better option?

[Glenn E.]

Elsewhere, Gl has been proposed as abbreviation for Gilbert.
Generally I'm less a fan of lower-case l given potential confusion with upper-case I; however we do have precedent such as Dl = Dalva, and minimal confusion potential in this particular case anyway.
So, Gl for Gilbert then?

Confusion potential confirmed, as my suggestion was GI (capital g, capital i). Would Gi be a better option?

Heh, that's funny.

I actually read the original suggestion as a capital 'i' and thought it was for a brand called Gilbert & Irmão, which of course does not exist. (I was confusing myself with Borges & Irmão.) A small 'i' would have solved that problem, so that's what I favor as the abbreviation for Gilbert: Gi

[MigSU]

Agree with Gi. Gb also acceptable. GI too ambiguous (is it Gi or GL?).

[Alex Bridgeman]

Agree with Gi. I also first thought Gilbert & Irmão because we use BI for Borges & Irmão.

Gi please.

[jdaw1]

Added to first post

Gi = Gilbert

[jdaw1]

Just seen on Instagram that Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda. declared a 2022 Vintage Port. Now added to the list.

Since this is about their fifth vintage, we need an abbreviation for them…

CAD seems irresistible

Hell, this one will be awkward. There seem to be multiple non-geographic sub-brands, including Quintela and Piano. Likely as not, my life insurance has explicit exclusions. CAQ and CAP? Or, which I tentatively prefer, AlQ and AlP?

Possibly relevant information:

A = J. H. Andresen
Ad = Adam

Edit: this post redundant: already assigned, Pn = Piano.

[Glenn E.]

The only VP that I can find is branded Piano and does not prominently display Carlos Alonso on the label at all. Since our abbreviations are by brand, it should probably be Pi for Piano.

Edit: Pi is already in use by Pintas, and while finding that I note that Pn has already been assigned to Piano.

[jdaw1]

Edit: Pi is already in use by Pintas, and while finding that I note that Pn has already been assigned to Piano.

Sorry, my error. I should have known. Indeed, in this thread there has been slight discussion.

[Alex Bridgeman]

There are several Vintage Ports from Quinta do Bom Retiro, both from before their purchase by Ramos Pinto in 1919 and from after.

From before, I know of at least 1872, 1878, 1887 and 1904. (There is also a 1911 white, which may be a colheita or may be a white vintage port.)

From after, we have 2018 and 2023 - there may be other years I don't know about.

I think we need some more abbreviations! I suggest BR for the pre-Ramos Pinto years (compared with Br for Barros) and RPBR for Ramos Pinto Bom Retiro to follow the pattern set by DSR (two letters for the quinta) and RPE (two letters for the main shipper).

[Glenn E.]

Those sound good to me.

[jdaw1]

• “1870, Bon Retiro, Feuerheerd”

• “1881, Bon Retiro, Feuerheerd”

• [in Graham 1842 and Martinez 1849] “Bom Retiro 1847”

• [in Ramos Pinto 1884] “Cellar tags were photographed in the Ramos Pinto cellars on 23 June 2017. The vintages included 1847 Garrafeira, 1880, 1884, 1890, 1909, 1921 (Bom Retiro), 1922 (Bom Retiro), 1923, 1923 (Bom Retiro), 1924, 1931, 1931 (Bom Retiro), 1934 (Bom Retiro), 1935, 1952, 1955, 1963, 1970, 1975, 1976, 1982, 1982 (single varietal, Touriga Nacional), 1982 (single varietal, Touriga Franca), 1983 (single varietal, Barroca), 1983 (single varietal, Roriz), 1994, 1994 (Ervamoira), 2000, 2004, 2005 (Ervamoira), 2009 (Ervamoira), 2014 (Bom Retiro). Photographs appear in this chapter.”

• [in Ramos Pinto 1924] “… Ramos Pinto & Irmão, Lda, Bom Retiro 1924, Garrafado em Maio 1926”

• “The Ramos Pinto vintage 1931 was made from Quinta do Bom Retiro grapes and bottled after
three years in cask.”

• [in Ramos Pinto 1934] “This wine was produced from Quinta do Bom Retiro grapes”

• [in Ramos Pinto 1935] “Ramos-Pinto Vinho do Porto Bom Retiro 1935 Adriano Ramos Pinto & Irmão”

• “Ramos-Pinto Quinta do Bom Retiro: 2014, and 2018”

• [in Warre 1985] “Made from the best “lots” of the Cavadinha vineyard … and Bom Retiro …. Between ’66 and ’70 in style says Bill Warre.”

• [in Warre 2003] “Vineyards: Quinta da Cavadinha, Quinta do Bom Retiro”

• 1847 Bom Retiro … “Dozens of Port, Vintage 1847 (Bom Retiro), Shipped by Carvalho, Bottled 1855” and “Bottled 1850”

• “1851 Bona Retiro”, “Bona Retiro, 1851, bottled in 1855”

• 1887 Bom Retiro: … “Bin 92. Bom Retiro Vintage 1887 Bottled 1890 Per doz.”.

• 1896 Bom Retiro: A steward’s book of Gonville & Caius College Cambridge mentions, possibly on 10 February 1902, and in a delightfully curly hand, 57 dozen of “Port Bom Retiro Ex quality 1896”, the t’s still looking much like l’s in later stock lists.

• 1896, 1897 Bom Retiro: Hicks & Co., Plymouth, … “Bom Retiro Vintage 1896. Bottled 1899”, and “Bom Retiro Vintage 1897. Bottled 1900”.

• 1897 Bom Retiro: The Wine Society, “Bom Retiro, Vintage 1897, bottled 1900, full rich”