On the hunt for a 93!

[MigSU]

I find this is a very interesting debate and pleased to know that I have more money than sense and I lack a broad knowledge of wine regions because I buy Burgundy and Bordeaux EP.

I'm sorry if you felt personally attacked, it was not my intention.

But you and I know very well that for every person that buys Burgundy or Bordeaux because they actually quite like the wines (of which you might very well be one) there are ten that buy them because it says "Burgundy/Bordeaux" on the label. And these are people with very deep pockets.

[hadge]

I don't feel personally attacked, I found it funny to be truthful.

I do agree with you that there are too many "investors" in wine and never plan to drink it.

[JacobH]

I do agree with you that there are too many "investors" in wine and never plan to drink it.

André Simon famously died aged 93 with only two magnums of wine left (plus, apparently, enough Château Latour 1945 to serve 400 at what would have been his 100th Birthday Party in 1970). We should all aim for that type of cellar planning!

[winesecretary]

This thread has gone in a funny and, if as a broad drinker/collector of all sorts of wine over a 30 year period I may be indulged for saying so, not necessarily helpful direction. We are here comparing very different markets for very different products which exist for very different reasons.

The two unifying factors in the products are that (i) the alcohol in them in small to medium quantities make you feel relaxed and happy and in too-large quantities morose (ii) the taste of them pushes the buttons on a series of pleasure receptors.

There are, depending on the individual, secondary social characteristics in play as well of course but the extent to which those secondary social characteristics are at play are MARKEDLY (and I make no apology for the capitalisation) less present in the contributors to this forum than virtually any other online or offline group of which I am a member or observer (which latter is basically all of them).

Part of the reason that this group is so much less susceptible to status-displaying and more friendly is because the subject matter at both the 'THAT'S what it's about' and the 'WOW, that's amazing' ends are financially accessible. Doesn't matter if you are a dustman or a millionaire banker, you can afford to pay the very reasonable price charged for Niepoort LBV 2015 - a genuinely admirable port. And, most people in the UK with access to a computer could afford to buy, as a really special occasion drink, a bottle of Fonseca 1985. It's fine if that is not your thing and you choose not to, of course; but it is possible.

Claret and burgundy are at the top end different levels.

Classed growth claret is a mass market globally traded product and the only reasons to buy EP are (i) provenance/storage and (ii) unusual bottle sizes (in good vintages I still buy some halves but I notice this year's offers are starting to say 'halves if available' - so I'm out).

Burgundy is a non mass market but nevertheless globally traded product and so it is cash for access - if you want some of the wine buy now because you may never see it again. I first started to go really long in Burgundy only with the 2007s but I had bought cases sporadically before that. Some of the 07s I bought were made in tiny quantities (a couple of barrels) and for those I have literally never seen a bottle on the open market at any price. And, where what I will call status-seeking burgundies (many of which are genuinely wonderful, by the way- ready-to drink bottles of Freddy Mugnier's Chambolle or Coche-Dury's Meursault are some of life's greatest pleasures) are concerned the open market is asking prices that I do not feel able to pay. They are brilliant, but rather than spank 500 quid for a single bottle of 2005 from either I am more likely to buy another half case of Fonseca 85 instead.

This is 'fashion in wine' writ large. We do not think of it as 'fashion' because the cycle is more than one adolescence in length. But, it is fashion. In 1765 (and indeed 1910) hock was more expensive than even the best claret. In 1995 port was much more expensive than madeira. We, as port forumites, are buying unfashionable but very good things. Let us therefore rejoice.

[hadge]

A great post GEAG!

[Chris Doty]

My point, just to be clear, is

BRAND

Ports brand image hasn’t yet moved into broad consumption. It is regarded as a mans after dinner cigar drink. And even then it competes in a staggeringly diverse array of other men’s drinks

Everyone goes into a bar and says “a glass of champagne please” - they make zillions of bottles a year, in USA, impossible to find under $30. @30 you can choose from about 80 producers, from $40, closer to 800. They protect their brand. I just paid $400 a bottle for 1993 champagne and was happy to do so. Entirely cause the brand/presentation. You open quarter century comtes and you are making a statement of thoughtfulness that is special and branded unusual and particular.

A glass of Pinot ditto. You can get Pinot cheap, even burgundy, even my boy jadot, who I pop with great anticipation. That house the Ralph Lauren of wine brah. Madison 72 hotties table in town.

He at Walmart for $6. He plays the spectrum and adds value at every level while maintaining brand image and authenticity. Not easy . For jadot my beef is batonage

Point is brand. Reserve ruby should be the summer sensation post covid (hit me w the 20 brah!), it should be served chilled. Quevedo crusted is good here too, but my usual is Black. Ymmv. Port should be a go to burger side . It should never ever be served in a thimble with half a drop in there. We see huge pours of whiskey , and teeeeny little $15 pours of 2007 niepooop cohleilra , which I must say was already lovely and will no doubt be stunning if correct in about 30 more years .

Port shouldbe served de rigeur @ joints. It has the mouthfeel to mesh with any cut of legit meat. That’s also where haters may find tawny especially useful, , adding a brown sugar sex magic to their medallions. What do I know?!

But it ain’t happening . I lived in nyc, London, Bangalore, philly, Pittsburgh, and last five months st Pete, and I seen every drink imaginable have a day in the sun. There was some burn with 2011, best vintage By FAR in my lifetime. Jancis said best 2011 region was Douro, and yes, but there was no real competition. I own no other 2011, plenty of 2009, 2010, some 2012, etc...

No one drinks those wines. Nor do they discuss them.

They talk about their preferences for flavored seltzer water and shandy and ... ?!

Sell 10yr tawny, pink, and tonic port to the <26 female. You will win. Ignore the “port or bust “ as well as the first growth dudes. Go where sex is happening and give profits to charity (s?) and watch what happens

[Chris Doty]

“Chateau Angelus produces about 100,000 bottles of this wine annually.“

https://www.vinovest.co/blog/chateau-angelus

So from 2000-2020 that’s 2,000,000 bottles.

What’s the cheapest you can find for delivery to Melton or ridgewood?

Asking for a friend

[Chris Doty]

“Chateau Angelus produces about 100,000 bottles of this wine annually.“

https://www.vinovest.co/blog/chateau-angelus

So from 2000-2020 that’s 2,000,000 bottles.

What’s the cheapest you can find for delivery to Melton or ridgewood?

Asking for a friend

”

The Chateau Angelus estate annually produces an average of 10,000 cases of the Chateau Angelus and 1,000 cases of Carillon d’Angelus. Production of No. 3 d’Angelus is even smaller, with nearly 800 cases per vintage.

Let’s look at all the three wines.

1. Chateau Angelus Grand Vin

The Chateau Angelus Grand Vin is a blend of Cabernet Franc and Merlot, and is aged for 18 months. After this, it spends at least five years in the bottle before it’s released. Chateau Angelus produces about 100,000 bottles of this wine annually. Most vintages come in magnum sizes, too.“



Ibid, your honor. ...

Son, my turn... I’ve been staring at this rap sheet of yours for fifteen minutes (!?)... June 93!! Assault “that’s assault, brotha”...

[Chris Doty]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5w6XI5lfdg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t_htoSaQFf4

I said earlier the only reason for moms Lima Wilco is methuselah, playing bloom is also in the short list of things... 🧩 🦘

[Chris Doty]

[Chris Doty]

If someone can improve upon

$500 a bottle for 93 angelus ;;from a California auction:; id be indebted instead on just in indescribablly ibuprofen

[hadge]

there is 3 bottles in a UK auction at the moment at £480 plus fees for the 3 bottles

[hadge]

otherwise one bottle @ £187 inbond in UK.

but I'm not sure why they would want Angelus? there is better St-Emilion's

[winesecretary]

@ hadge - exactly

@ Chris - why bother with 1993 Angelus (or indeed almost any 1993; the Latour is tasty, the Mouton surprisingly good, the Haut Brion merely okay, the Lafite and Margaux poor) anyway.

If you want US-available St Emilion of great quality, a 1966 Ausone I had last year made me almost cry with joy for the 30 minutes it lasted from pouring out. Drink with a friend or two it is no problem to get though it in that time.

Or, if one just wants a 1990s claret of the rarefied variety but a sensible price, buy the 1994 Haut Brion, the perfume is such you could wear the stuff as well as drink it.

I hope you are enjoying the Niepoort 2000, I think it's a very good wine indeed.

[Chris Doty]

@ hadge - exactly

@ Chris - why bother with 1993 Angelus (
I hope you are enjoying the Niepoort 2000, I think it's a very good wine indeed.

[Chris Doty]

Left a voicemail for presumed

https://www.crsfw.com/

Inquiring

Will relate info as acupuncture dictates

Meanwhile



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp2qkhHU0Mw

[Chris Doty]

[Chris Doty]

otherwise one bottle @ £187 inbond in UK.

but I'm not sure why they would want Angelus? there is better St-Emilion's

https://www.crsfw.com/list/search/

name=Angelus&page=4

All your angelus are belong to us





🧲

[Alex Bridgeman]

I wonder what the best wine made in 1993 was?

I’ve only tasted the Crasto 1993 LBV (which was very enjoyable) so I’m not qualified but I hear it was a great vintage in South Australia and in Tokaji.

And that 1993 Sercial I mentioned was stunning.

[akzy]

I wonder what the best wine made in 1993 was?

I’ve only tasted the Crasto 1993 LBV (which was very enjoyable) so I’m not qualified but I hear it was a great vintage in South Australia and in Tokaji.

And that 1993 Sercial I mentioned was stunning.

Simon and I will be reviewing the 93 aszu essencia from Royal Tokaji this weekend. We'll make sure to report.

[MigSU]

I wonder what the best wine made in 1993 was?

I’ve only tasted the Crasto 1993 LBV (which was very enjoyable) so I’m not qualified but I hear it was a great vintage in South Australia and in Tokaji.

And that 1993 Sercial I mentioned was stunning.

Liceiras?

[Glenn E.]

1993 Barbeito Sercial Manuel Eugenio Fernandez (MEF) Madeira
1993 Barbeito Malvasia Candida Faja dos Padres Madeira

I've heard the latter is pretty spectacular. Sercial isn't really my style, so I haven't looked into the former at all.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I wonder what the best wine made in 1993 was?

I’ve only tasted the Crasto 1993 LBV (which was very enjoyable) so I’m not qualified but I hear it was a great vintage in South Australia and in Tokaji.

And that 1993 Sercial I mentioned was stunning.

Liceiras?

I don't think I have ever tasted it. I can't find a note of it in my records and I'm pretty good at keeping track of the Ports I drink.

[Chris Doty]

I don't think I have ever tasted it. I can't find a note of it in my records and I'm pretty good at keeping track of the Ports I drink.

I never HEARD of it. And I raised in the streets

[JacobH]

Simon and I will be reviewing the 93 aszu essencia from Royal Tokaji this weekend. We'll make sure to report.

Since this thread is going in all sorts of directions, I hope that no-one will mind if I say this: I’m always intrigued by Tokaji Essencia since I have never quite understood who the target market is. I am not quite sure if the business of serving it on a tea-spoon is merely a marketing trick but at <3% ABV and up to 85% residual sugar ( ) I presume that most people don’t drink more than a very small amount in one go.

Does it ever get drunk other than as a novelty? I assume it must do, but I can’t quite work out who by and when!

[JacobH]

My point, just to be clear, is

BRAND

Ports brand image hasn’t yet moved into broad consumption. It is regarded as a mans after dinner cigar drink. And even then it competes in a staggeringly diverse array of other men’s drinks

No one drinks those wines. Nor do they discuss them.

They talk about their preferences for flavored seltzer water and shandy and ... ?!

This is a general issue with any “special category” wine. People just don’t really drink them any more. Even somewhere really traditional like Rules—which still has Port and some pudding wines by the glass— offers cocktails and champagne as aperitifs rather than, say, sherry or Madeira. I can only think of couple of restaurants that offer, say, vermouth other than as a cocktail ingredient or some of the French fortifieds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Aussie or SA Port on offer.

At least with the natural wine movement people are a bit more receptive to some of the oxidised wines than they used to be but it just seems to me it is going to take a huge change before lots of people start wanting to drink things that table or sparkling wines.

[MigSU]

Since this thread is going in all sorts of directions

Fridge freezer for sale, £100 or best offer.

[MigSU]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Aussie or SA Port on offer.

Good.

[JacobH]

Good.

Don’t forget that David Guimaraens spent quite a lot of time working with the Australians before he moved back to Portugal!

[MigSU]

Good.

Don’t forget that David Guimaraens spent quite a lot of time working with the Australians before he moved back to Portugal!

We all have our crosses to bear

[Doggett]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Aussie or SA Port on offer.

Good.

Quite often available through Laithwaites is the basic 10YO Penfolds Tawny wine. And through other merchants the Grandfather Tawny and Great grandfather editions which are quite pricey. There are plenty of other examples if you search them out.

[JacobH]

Quite often available through Laithwaites is the basic 10YO Penfolds Tawny wine. And through other merchants the Grandfather Tawny and Great grandfather editions which are quite pricey. There are plenty of other examples if you search them out.

Yes. I was thinking more that whilst they are available they tend to be only available from specialist suppliers or the online places that are quite big. I don’t think I’ve ever seen them in a bar or restaurant. For example, the South African restaurant in Farrington, Vivat Bacchus is very wine-focused but has two Ports, a sherry, a Banyuls, a Tokaji and a SA Riesling for sale by the glass. They don’t even have a SA fortified by the bottle on their big list of SA wines.

[Alex Bridgeman]

My point, just to be clear, is

BRAND

Ports brand image hasn’t yet moved into broad consumption. It is regarded as a mans after dinner cigar drink. And even then it competes in a staggeringly diverse array of other men’s drinks

No one drinks those wines. Nor do they discuss them.

They talk about their preferences for flavored seltzer water and shandy and ... ?!

This is a general issue with any “special category” wine. People just don’t really drink them any more. Even somewhere really traditional like Rules—which still has Port and some pudding wines by the glass— offers cocktails and champagne as aperitifs rather than, say, sherry or Madeira. I can only think of couple of restaurants that offer, say, vermouth other than as a cocktail ingredient or some of the French fortifieds. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Aussie or SA Port on offer.

At least with the natural wine movement people are a bit more receptive to some of the oxidised wines than they used to be but it just seems to me it is going to take a huge change before lots of people start wanting to drink things that table or sparkling wines.

In the good old days, CMAG and I would occasionally lunch at Ibérica on Victoria Street. I would inevitably arrive before him and thoroughly enjoyed their range of about 5-6 different Vermouths available by the glass.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I’ve also just realised that I have a bottle of Stanton & Killeen’s 1993 Vintage Fortified (which is what they now call their Port-style fortified wine).

[JacobH]

In the good old days, CMAG and I would occasionally lunch at Ibérica on Victoria Street. I would inevitably arrive before him and thoroughly enjoyed their range of about 5-6 different Vermouths available by the glass.

That’s interesting. Vermouth seems to have a huge popularity in Spain: the last time I was in Madrid a couple of years ago there were all sorts of places specialising it (including on tap!). I think the best vermouth range in London is Mele e Pere in Soho. They make some themselves and also have a huge list by the glass.

[akzy]

Now definitely not Port - please demote.

Since this thread is going in all sorts of directions, I hope that no-one will mind if I say this: I’m always intrigued by Tokaji Essencia since I have never quite understood who the target market is. I am not quite sure if the business of serving it on a tea-spoon is merely a marketing trick but at <3% ABV and up to 85% residual sugar ( ) I presume that most people don’t drink more than a very small amount in one go.

Does it ever get drunk other than as a novelty? I assume it must do, but I can’t quite work out who by and when!

Fortunately this is the Aszu Essencia so is 7.5% - basically special brew .

It's surely just the same market as Sauternes - pairs with the same stuff?

[MigSU]

Like a nice fatty foie.

[JacobH]

Fortunately this is the Aszu Essencia so is 7.5% - basically special brew .

It's surely just the same market as Sauternes - pairs with the same stuff?

Ah. Thank you. I wasn’t aware that there was a difference between “Aszu Essencia” and “Essencia”. At those sorts of ABV / sugar levels I’m sure it is very enjoyable on its own!

[Alex Bridgeman]

I had a very decent bottle of Le Haut Lieu Moelleux 1993 Vouvray on Friday night. Could be another wine for the ‘93 children to look out for (I paid £43 for the bottle).

[uncle tom]

Could be another wine for the ‘93 children to look out for

Aside from a bottle of Licieras and some Crasto LBV, I notice that I also have a Taylor 10yr - bottled in '93