ThePortForum.com

I've been wondering this for a while, so I thought it about time to ask.

For a bottle of Port to be labelled "Port" it must satisfy a bunch of criteria, principle of which is, of course, that it's grown in the appropriate demarcated Douro region of Portugal.

But the techniques used in making a bottle of "Port" could, it seems to me, be deployed just about anywhere in the world. Reading the specs for some of the 2011s I see the "usual suspects" - nothing unique to the Douro - indeed, I could mix together 3 of my Alentejo bottles to produce a similar mix.

So, preamble concluded, the questions...
Are there other countries or regions producing what one could call Port if it were not forbidden to call it such?
If not, then why not?

Yes, port-like products are made extensively in the USA, Australia and South Africa and have been for at least a century.

DRT wrote:Yes, port-like products are made extensively in the USA, Australia and South Africa and have been for at least a century.

Ah ha!
And what do they call them?

All three countries have used the name Port in the past but Australia and South Africa now use "Tawny" for most of the styles they produce. South Africa also use "Cape Vintage" and "Cape Vintage Reserve".

Some USA producers still insist on using the name "Port" but the practice seems to be becoming less culturally acceptable, particularly as some of those same producers campaign to protect the names of American areas of origin or styles.

All the 'ports' I have tried from outside Portugal have been ghastly aberrations. Discuss.

LGTrotter wrote:All the 'ports' I have tried from outside Portugal have been ghastly aberrations. Discuss.

Last year and this at the BFT I tried some other 'Ports' and they were all, without exception, bleughhh. I have found some nice Maurys, which are like reasonably simple aged tawnies (perhaps the best ones approximate a 20YO). But I do NOT like Australian or American 'Ports'. I reserve judgement on Cape Reserve which I've never tried and which Alex seems to like.

Just to complete the list of Ersatz ports, there is even one from the Ahr valley (a wine region south of Bonn) that is called "Omega 1868":
https://shop.wg-mayschoss.de/winzergeno ... omega-1868

It's probably made from a grape called Regent. I have not tasted it and would probably not spend 22 Euros on it.

I have had some very posh (OK, posh for me, which isn't too hard) Australian things and I just don't get them. I have a bottle of Penfolds Great Grandfather which was a generous gift but I can't bear to look at it much less drink it.

LGTrotter wrote:All the 'ports' I have tried from outside Portugal have been ghastly aberrations. Discuss.

I opened a bottle of California "Port" some years ago. It resulted in one of only two times my iron-stomached, titanium livered, alcoholic friend poured a bottle down the drain.

The experiment will not be repeated in my house in my lifetime.

LGTrotter wrote:All the 'ports' I have tried from outside Portugal have been ghastly aberrations. Discuss.

I've tried a few of the Australian ones, not tried the SA ones at all yet, though I do have one I received as a present.
So far I have not found the rubies to be anywhere near the standard of true ports, but I have been very impressed with one tawny - the Penfold Great Grandfather - not exactly like other tawnies, but I enjoyed it very much (enough to mention here (though do take into account that my preference is normally ruby rather than tawny for style). This meant I was surprised by your subsequent post...

LGTrotter wrote: have had some very posh (OK, posh for me, which isn't too hard) Australian things and I just don't get them. I have a bottle of Penfolds Great Grandfather which was a generous gift but I can't bear to look at it much less drink it.

But don't worry - I can help

Once, courtesy of Andy Velebil, I have had an impressive American pseudo-Port. Details forgotten: perhaps Derek or Alex can remember.

jdaw1 wrote:Once, courtesy of Andy Velebil, I have had an impressive American pseudo-Port. Details forgotten: perhaps Derek or Alex can remember.

It was a 1/2 bottle of Roxo Port Cellars Ruby Tradicional. It used basically the same grapes as in many Douro Ports (Touriga Nacional, Tinta Roriz, Souzao, bar steward). It is from the Paso Robles wine area of California (A large wine growing region here about 1/2 way between Los Angeles and Napa). Served double blind, no one guessed it was not from the Douro. The most realistic non-Douro port I've ever had.

Moderators. the word Bas-tar-do (without the hyphens) automatically gets converted to "bar steward". Can you please fix this as it's the name of a grape grown in the Douro and should not be automatically fixed.

Andy Velebil wrote:Moderators. the word Bas-tar-do (without the hyphens) automatically gets converted to "bar steward". Can you please fix this as it's the name of a grape grown in the Douro and should not be automatically fixed.

This is indeed a problem! Your list of the ingredients of the Roxo Porto Ruby Tradicional suddenly verges into the surreal.

DRT wrote: Some USA producers still insist on using the name "Port" but the practice seems to be becoming less culturally acceptable, particularly as some of those same producers campaign to protect the names of American areas of origin or styles.

In the USA a new product cannot use the term "Port." However, older products were 'grandfathered' in and can still keep their previous use of the term "port."

I have found a few California producers to create good Port-like-substances, with both traditional varieties and not. While you wouldn't usually confuse any of them for the real thing, they can certainly reach the status of delicious.


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Andy Velebil wrote:Moderators. the word Bas-tar-do (without the hyphens) automatically gets converted to "bar steward". Can you please fix this as it's the name of a grape grown in the Douro and should not be automatically fixed.

Fixed.

As the poser of the question, this has been most enlightening.
If I ever run across any of these "port-a-likes", at a decent price, I'll give them a go.

One thing that still puzzles me though is why it should be that these wines are, it seems, so far below the standard of pukka port?

Perhaps because the quality of Port is so much about the long history of growing particular grapes in a certain range of terrains and climates, and then producing it in a certain way according to processes refined over centuries. Other regions produce wonderful dessert wines. Perhaps 'port' really does need the conditions in the Douro to be port.

Perhaps because the quality of Port is so much about the long history of growing particular grapes in a certain range of terrains and climates, and then producing it in a certain way according to processes refined over centuries. Other regions produce wonderful dessert wines. Perhaps 'port' really does need the conditions in the Douro to be port.

The schistous soil of the Douro provides a very distinctive minerality. However, you don't really appreciate this until you compare Douro white table wines with those made elsewhere.

Even the most determined efforts to replicate the port manufacturing process elsewhere in the world results in wines that are not quite right as port. I suspect it is the background minerality that the other wines lack that makes the difference.

djewesbury wrote:Perhaps because the quality of Port is so much about the long history of growing particular grapes in a certain range of terrains and climates, and then producing it in a certain way according to processes refined over centuries. Other regions produce wonderful dessert wines. Perhaps 'port' really does need the conditions in the Douro to be port.

This is about what I think. I have had very good dessert wines (which port isn't IMHO) but I have always been thrown by descriptions which suggest they are like port, because when I bring them near to me and drink them, the look, smell and taste are all wrong. They should call them something else (as I believe is now the case) to save me from the gustatory curve ball they inflict.

uncle tom wrote:
The schistous soil of the Douro provides a very distinctive minerality. However, you don't really appreciate this until you compare Douro white table wines with those made elsewhere.

Even the most determined efforts to replicate the port manufacturing process elsewhere in the world results in wines that are not quite right as port. I suspect it is the background minerality that the other wines lack that makes the difference.

I would agree with this. And the lack of irrigation in the Douro as well.

Andy Velebil wrote:

uncle tom wrote:
The schistous soil of the Douro provides a very distinctive minerality. However, you don't really appreciate this until you compare Douro white table wines with those made elsewhere.

Even the most determined efforts to replicate the port manufacturing process elsewhere in the world results in wines that are not quite right as port. I suspect it is the background minerality that the other wines lack that makes the difference.

I would agree with this. And the lack of irrigation in the Douro as well.

I think an equally big issue with many of these other wines is they aren't made like Port. Many wineries will do things like ferment dry and back sweeten, not use anything like lagares (automatic or foot trodden), use old barriques and not larger barrels, not have a clue how to blend for a quality product as it's usually only part of a portfolio, etc. IMHO, all of those have as much as an effect as the terroir.


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LGTrotter wrote:I have had very good dessert wines (which port isn't IMHO)

Why is port not a good dessert wine in your opinion?

AW77 wrote:

LGTrotter wrote:I have had very good dessert wines (which port isn't IMHO)

Why is port not a good dessert wine in your opinion?

This was a bit of a "springes to catch woodcock" comment.

But I do not think that port goes well with any dessert, I refer here to mature vintage. I know there is a line of argument which suggests chocolate puddings but I reject this roundly. It does not seem to compliment rather they compete with each other and the chocolate usually wins. It comes back to my sense that port belongs at the end of a meal, perhaps with a scrap of cheese or a nut but not food and certainly not a dessert course. I remember a previous thread where it was suggested that the cheese belongs before the dessert with the port, this is a dangerous wind that blows in from France I fancy. And they drink port mainly as an aperitif!

I am aware that there are those that favour port with their red meat, but this seems rather heady a brew for the digestion to my way of thinking.

LGTrotter wrote:I am aware that there are those that favour port with their red meat, but this seems rather heady a brew for the digestion to my way of thinking.

No headier than perfection.

jdaw1 wrote:

LGTrotter wrote:I am aware that there are those that favour port with their red meat, but this seems rather heady a brew for the digestion to my way of thinking.

No headier than perfection.

For a life coach you seem to be straying from the middle way. Your disciples look to you for leadership.

LGTrotter wrote:For a life coach you seem to be straying from the middle way. Your disciples look to you for leadership.

No. They look to me for cold hard truth.

At least, if they look to me for self-restraint, they are fools.

jdaw1 wrote:

LGTrotter wrote:For a life coach you seem to be straying from the middle way. Your disciples look to you for leadership.

No. They look to me for cold hard truth.

Ruthless honesty is the primary skill of this particular Life Coach.

Well used coaching tips include:

• "All of your problems begin and end with your pie-hole."
• "Whatever you do, don't have half a hearty or half a stroke. Have a whole one."
• "I'm an overweight, insulin dependant diabetic who drinks Port and eats clotted cream and you've got much more chance of dying soon than I have."
• "Your arteries are so clogged you're about to die."

There are more ruthless gems that cannot be printed on a family-friendly website.

As a testament to the effectiveness of the above style of coaching there is now 17lbs less of DRT and I have had virtually no carbs or alcohol for the past three weeks. I have also eaten at least 5 salads, one of which I made myself.

Only 3st more to go and he might stop shouting at me.

Yes but will we recognise this new gaunt DRT..?

djewesbury wrote:Yes but will we recognise this new gaunt DRT..?

Probably...

DRT wrote:

djewesbury wrote:Yes but will we recognise this new gaunt DRT..?

Probably...

new-DRT.jpg

That picture is DRT-like, but not technically DRT


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Compare and contrast, DRT as of a week ago.

Thanks for saving me some embarrassment by cropping low enough so that viewers cannot see the pork pie hanging out of my mouth.

Does anyone else think we might have drifted slightly off-topic?

Not at all! This is an education for us, true it is the kind of knowledge which will be seared into our now scarred minds for ever, nonetheless...

So let me get us back on topic; port's quite nice really, innit.