Discussions with a waiter

[Oliver58]

Hello,

today, I had a strange discussion with a waiter in a better restaurant in Hamburg, Germany. I would like to get some comments from experienced port-wine connoisseurs about it.

I was with my parents for lunch. I asked the waiter if he can offer port wine. I like ruby port. He said he even can offer a vintage port. I was interested and sceptical, because getting a vintage port in Hamburg is quiete rare. I asked him for the name of the port. He got the bottle. It was a "Beamont Cape Vintage 2008". I stayed sceptical and explained that there are 3 classes of port wine. A vintage port is the best and the most expensive one. The waiter persevered it is a vintage port, because it is quiete old, from 2008. I replied that it's nothing special, because port-wine has to be stored for some years in casks made of wood. He said he had some younger wines from 2009....

The price was 9.50 € for 0.1l. I asked the waiter if the port is slightly cooled. He replied it is not necessary to cool down port wine. Port should be drunken at room-temperature. I said that this is not right. An average temperature of 15°C is good. He said that the wholesaler told him not to cool port-wine.

Well, after that discussion my dad and me we both ordered a glass. The port was very good, but I'm quiete sure it was no vintage port.

I would like to obtain some comments from experienced members of this forum regarding:

1.) What is Beamont Cape Vintage 2008 for a port? It seems not to be from Douro valley.
2.) Is the year 2008 known for a vintage port?
3.) What do you think about the waiter?

[Andy Velebil]

No, it's not a "real" Port. As real Port only comes from the Douro Valley in Portugal. What you had was a "port" styled wine from South Africa. It's made in a similar way as it's fortified, but as it's not from the Douro Valley it shouldn't be called Port (but that is another long topic in itself).

2008 isn't old, matter of fact it's quite young for any wine.

Port can be stored in casks for many decades, but only for certain types of Port such as Tawny's. Ruby Ports can be bottled between 2-6 years after harvest, so not that long compared to Tawny's.

I prefer Port to be served a little more on the cool side, not room temperature. But that would also depend on what room temp is in your area. I live in a warm climate (Los Angeles) so in the warmer months I'll slightly chill my bottles as room temperature is way too warm here.

[PhilW]

Hi Oliver, and welcome to

Where are you from? I guess our opinions of the waiter might vary depending on where the restaurant is located. Regarding your questions:

1. Beaumont Cape Vintage 2008 would appear (here) to be a South African fortified wine made in the style of port (but cannot officially be called port since as you say it is not from the Douro).

2. 2008 was not a generally declared year in the Douro, though there are quite a number of Single Quintas from that year. I have no idea whether this was a good/bad year in South Africa.

3. I'll skip this one, since it depends where you/the restaurant are located, and exactly what was said, but will comment on what you mention, below.

Regarding temperature, I personally prefer to drink port at room temperature, assuming around 18-20C; I would therefore not normally cool it when serving, but would always expect it to be stored in constant cool (12-14), dark, humid conditions.

Regarding "vintage", some people do like to drink the port young; it does not have to be old to be vintage, though you are right that the typical rule is that unless drinking young (<3-4yrs old) then typically it is advisable to wait until the port is >20yr old; though it is down to each individual's preference.

Hope that all helps, and good that you enjoyed the port once served; and welcome again to .

[Axel P]

Oliver,

unfortunately this is rather common for german Someliers to not know anything about Port. As I am teaching in Geisenheim, Heilbronn and at the german Sommelier Classes it is absolutely normal for a german "multiplier" to not know anything about Port.

So his behavior and replies unfortunately is more comon in Germany than a real fact-based answer.

Everthing else has been answered.

Axel

[Oliver58]

Thank you very much to all contributors

@Axel: Yes, you are absolutely right.

@Phil:
Thanks, Phil, for your warm welcome.
I'm from Hamburg, Germany.

@Andy:
You are from L.A.? Great city! I have been there in October 2011. We had about 100° F. I love the city very much. Kind and politely people, great locations like Universal Studios and well-know for really good service!

Thanks again to all people here for very fast replies.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Oliver

South Africa produces fortified wines from the Stellenbosch / Cape region that are made in the same way as Port, from the same grape varieties and often with vinification and blending supervised by visiting Portuguese winemakers. The wines are stored in large or small wooden vats and are treated the same way as a Douro vintage port, late bottled vintage port or tawny port.

The very best ruby wines are bottled as Cape Vintage Reserve - in quality terms this would be the equivalent of a full declaration Vintage Port. These are released 3-4 times a decade. 1995, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2007 and 2009 are years which generated Cape Vintage Reserve wines.

The next best wines are bottled as Cape Vintage - the quality equivalent to a second tier port declaration such as a single quinta port or Fonseca Guimaraens. 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2012 are recent years which produced Cape Vintage wines.

South African producers also make a late bottled ruby port (which can be filtered or unfiltered when bottled) which will be bottled any time between 3-6 years after the wine was made.

Then there are the tawny ports. These range from Cape Tawny (which can also have an indication of age) right through to Cape Tawny Reserve from a single harvest. While it is not unusual to come across old Cape Tawny wines from the 1940s, it is very rare to find a very old South African Cape Vintage or Cape Vintage Reserve wine. The oldest I have ever come across was from 1966 and the oldest I own is from 1997. If ever anyone finds a 30+ year old South African Cape Vintage then please let me know!

Alex

[mosesbotbol]

I am not impressed with the waiter.

[LGTrotter]

I think what is most shocking about this tale is that it was on the continent. I am used to surly teenagers who clearly neither know nor care about the food and especially the drink they are serving up in the UK but in Germany? It's not on.

[uncle tom]

Wine is a very big subject, and for sommeliers there is the need to know the essentials of every major region and variety.

For port, a sommelier needs to know and understand:

1) The distinction between real port and port style wines from other parts of the world

2) The three broad classes of port: ruby, tawny, white

3) The three principal sub-divisions of ruby port: ruby/reserve, LBV, vintage

4) The classic years for vintage port

5) The essentials of decanting

6) The correct glassware

7) The essentials of serving

Anything else should be regarded as a bonus..

In the case of the OP, the waiter clearly had a very sketchy knowledge of port and was filling in the gaps - needs to brush up his education on the subject..