Port brand abbreviations

Data, quotations, and other non-conversational posts containing reference materials.
MigSU
Warre’s Otima 20 year old Tawny
Posts: 706
Joined: 13:22 Wed 17 Feb 2021
Location: Douro Valley

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by MigSU »

Quinta da Pacheca has released VP in 2000, 2016, 17, 19, and 21 (that I know of).

Gaivosa has at least 2003, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2020, as well as their 'Amphitheatrum' series.

Tecedeiras has 2003, 2007, 2008, 2016, and 2017 (that I'm aware of).
PhilW
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3588
Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
Location: Near Cambridge, UK

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).
Website has multiple tawnies, two LBVs, and zero VPs. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation. But anyway, I’m changing my mind for this temporary abbreviation to Pa.
Agree with Pa, was going to suggest the same if we passed the 3+ vintages test.
jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?
No website; internet knows of VPs 2015 and 2017. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation.
MigSU wrote: 22:59 Thu 16 May 2024 Gaivosa has at least 2003, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2020, as well as their 'Amphitheatrum' series.
Agree with Gv
jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Tc, for Tecedeiras?
Website knows of Vintages 2016 and 2017 with other online evidence of a 2008, and LBVs 2014 and 2015. Also, unlike the table wine, it is “Quinta das Tecedeiras”. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Tc?
Agree with Tc.
jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?
Website has VPs from every year 2013–2021. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. SO?
Agree.
jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Thu 16 May 2024
jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).
Website has VPs 2014, ’16, ’17, ’18. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Po?
Agree - reluctantly, since non-obvious, and noting shortage of P.. abbreviations for any future brands, but I don't have better suggestion.
My alternate (VPID indexing) use of q pre-pend for Quinta do/da/... brands would facilitate qPe == Quinta do Pessegueiro vs Pe == Petre on this occasion, but would still be very tight/problematic for the future with the growing number of single quinta brands.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Given these agreements, and other silence, all added to the first post.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include and Ct. Preferences?

I slightly prefer , but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4308
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote: 21:37 Sun 19 May 2024 Given these agreements, and other silence, all added to the first post.
This occurred during my vacation, but I agree ex post facto.

P_ is definitely becoming problematic.

Pego, Passadouro, and Petre all prevent obvious abbreviations for Pessegueiro, and Petre is itself limited by Portal while Passadouro is limited by Pacheca.
jdaw1 wrote: 17:03 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include and Ct. Preferences?

I slightly prefer , but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Glenn E. wrote: 17:13 Thu 15 Aug 2024I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.
I do prefer to use non-exotic accents, as doing might, in the future, lessen problems such as:
Glenn E. wrote: 17:13 Thu 15 Aug 2024Pego, Passadouro, and Petre all prevent obvious abbreviations for Pessegueiro, and Petre is itself limited by Portal while Passadouro is limited by Pacheca.


Non-exotic? My restriction is to those present in almost of typefaces. So not the macron present in Sērikos, but yes to the basics: acute, grave, circumflex, umlaut ≈ diaeresis, cedilla, ring (yes, I know).
PhilW
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3588
Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
Location: Near Cambridge, UK

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

Glenn E. wrote:
jdaw1 wrote: 17:03 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include and Ct. Preferences?

I slightly prefer , but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.
+1
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4308
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote: 19:40 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Non-exotic? My restriction is to those present in almost of typefaces. So not the macron present in Sērikos, but yes to the basics: acute, grave, circumflex, umlaut ≈ diaeresis, cedilla, ring (yes, I know).
Every use of a non-basic character requires me to Google the short code for it. Ergo, basic characters only if at all possible.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15304
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

I’m another vote for basic characters only. Quinta da Côrte for me is Ct
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

I’m outvoted 3:½. Ct it is.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

BRPetrie wrote: 10:15 Wed 24 Jul 2024uncle tom - Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro
The quinta, but not any wines, are on the Fonseca website. “Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro”? “Fonseca Quinta do Cruzeiro”? FC? (There is Fc = Fletcher.)
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4301
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by flash_uk »

jdaw1 wrote: 20:02 Tue 03 Sep 2024
BRPetrie wrote: 10:15 Wed 24 Jul 2024uncle tom - Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro
The quinta, but not any wines, are on the Fonseca website. “Guimararens Quinta do Cruzeiro”? “Fonseca Quinta do Cruzeiro”? FC? (There is Fc = Fletcher.)
We have:
RPE = Ramos Pinto Quinta de Ervamoira

How about FGC? Or failing that, GCz
PhilW
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3588
Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
Location: Near Cambridge, UK

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.

However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

FGC is OK with me. I prefer the more concise FC, but the former also works. Also FCz works.

GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4308
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

Why FGC? I saw only one reference to Guimaraens VPs at that link, and that reference followed one to Fonseca VPs.

It seems to me that FC is the correct abbreviation unless there is evidence of a label for Fonseca Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro.

But more importantly, don't we usually require a minimum of 3 vintages to be awarded an abbreviation?

Edit: I now see the reference - the 1982 tasting. Winesearcher believes there was also a 2015, but none are available. That's still only 2 and we usually require 3.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Glenn E. wrote: 23:51 Tue 03 Sep 2024That's still only 2 and we usually require 3.
Fair. But, at a minimum, we need a temporary unofficial abbreviation for this tasting.
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4301
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by flash_uk »

PhilW wrote: 22:07 Tue 03 Sep 2024 There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.

However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.
jdaw1 wrote: 22:47 Tue 03 Sep 2024 FGC is OK with me. I prefer the more concise FC, but the former also works. Also FCz works.

GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.
Building on these, and noting that Fonseca isn't mentioned, and not liking Gm at the start as it nods to GM, how about GuC?
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4308
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

flash_uk wrote: 16:34 Wed 04 Sep 2024
PhilW wrote: 22:07 Tue 03 Sep 2024 There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.

However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.
jdaw1 wrote: 22:47 Tue 03 Sep 2024 FGC is OK with me. I prefer the more concise FC, but the former also works. Also FCz works.

GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.
Building on these, and noting that Fonseca isn't mentioned, and not liking Gm at the start as it nods to GM, how about GuC?
GuC works for me.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23951
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

GiC would come nearer the correct pronunciation of the house. Objections?
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4308
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote: 20:19 Wed 04 Sep 2024 GiC would come nearer the correct pronunciation of the house. Objections?
That also works for me.

Though I must admit that it seems... somehow... a bit odd. Yes, it does match pronunciation, but somehow in my mind the 'i' doesn't correlate to the name.
Glenn Elliott
PhilW
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3588
Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
Location: Near Cambridge, UK

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

Prefer Gu to Gi, but prepared to be out voted (and accepting others' dislike for Gm), agreeing with consequent GuC/GiC.


User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15304
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.

Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4308
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 00:16 Thu 05 Sep 2024 I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.

Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.
I don't really like the idea, either, but after re-reading Phil's post and reviewing the Ports in question, they do not say Fonseca on the label. It seems that there were Ports released by Guimaraens, at least 2 of which were also labeled Quinta do Cruizeiro, that were somehow separate from Fonseca. Or were just labeled weirdly? Both of the Cruzeiro-labeled versions (1982, and allegedly 2015 per winesearcher.com) came well after Fonseca was using Guimaraens as a second label.

I'm still fine with using FGC for those 2 vintages, provided we do not introduce Gu or Gi for the non-Fonseca, Guimaraens-branded VPs that Phil mentioned in his original post. This seems to be a rather confusing situation and perhaps some official clarification of the Guimaraens-branded VPs.
Glenn Elliott
PhilW
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3588
Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
Location: Near Cambridge, UK

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 00:16 Thu 05 Sep 2024 I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.

Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.
But we do use Ct for Quinta da Corte, vs DfC for Delaforce Quinta da Corte (since the latter was established first).
I strongly dislike FCz since the bottle is branded Guimaraens with no mention of Fonseca, so an abbreviation with no mention of Guimaraens does not make sense to me.
n.b. While I would personally have a separate abbreviation for Guimaraens (Gm/Gu) where Fonseca is not mentioned, I'm not against staying with FG as a compromise; and in either case the addition of the C (GmC/GuC/FGC) for current placemat doesn't necessarily have to be set in stone since it's a one-off.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4308
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?

Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
Glenn Elliott
Post Reply