Port brand abbreviations

[jdaw1]

Casa Santa Eufemia have been making and shipping Vintage Port for a while. I know them to have shipped wines from 1999, 2003, 2010 and 2016.
Should they be abbreviated to CSE?

Personally would prefer SE. Up for discussion of other options, preferences?

There's also a Quinta de Santa Eufémia (which interestingly is right next to Casa de Santa Eufémia). Using just SE might cause confusion (unless Quinta de Santa Eufémia already has an abbreviation).

Previously discussed in these pages. E.g., from here, and elsewhere.

[PhilW]

Hunt Roope = TH.

I didn't realise that. I'll amend the list to reflect the fact that Hunt Roope and Tuke Holdsworth are the same producer and therefore have the same abbreviation despite the difference in brand - analogous to Dalva and Presidential.

Hold on... I don't agree here - different brand should be different abbreviation for me. I would use TH Tuke Holdsworth, HR Hunt Roope (per other comment re Adams and ROC, and others etc)

Sent from my SM-S901B using Tapatalk

[jdaw1]

And how about FH for the occasional Factory House blends which were made from time to time?

Agreed, and indeed already used by myself elsewhere.

On 19 Dec 2017 we used FH for “Factory House Blend”; on 12 Oct 2010 we used BPFHB for “Buckingham Palace Factory House Blend”.

[jdaw1]

SE : Quinta de Santa Eufémia (qSE for me)
CSE : Casa de Santa Eufémia

We don’t use a ‘Q’ because it is a low-information word, much as we don’t use a ‘d’ for ‘do’.

But in this case the ‘Q’ is high-information. Unless the Quinta is manifestly the senior property (howsoever specified), I’d prefer QSE and CSE.

[jdaw1]

I need an abbreviation for the single quinta Port from Duorum's Castelo Melhor estate. Any objections to DuCM?

The proposed two letter suffix avoids any confusion which might just possibly arise from the Quinta dos Canais wines from Cockburn or the Cavadinha wines from Warre, both of which have a suffix of xxC.

DuCM works for me.
n.b. If it were just Dourum Castelo, I would have had no problem with DuC, we only need to ensure the quinta part is unique per-brand imo. However per Agua Alta and others, Castelo Melhor would naturally be CM for me, so DuCM makes sense.

DuCM works for me.

[jdaw1]

How do we abbreviate the Adam's labelled wines from Royal Oporto? ROA?

Ad for Adams. The fact it happens to be RO underneath is not relevant, naming by brand.
n.b. I'm surprised not to find it already in the list; in which case this is proposed.

We have used Ad for Adams. E.g.:

• 1966s on 10 Sep 2019;
• 1963s on 11 Oct 2013;
• 1955s on 12 Oct 2010;
• 1966s on 28 Jan 2008.

If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

[jdaw1]

Quinta Dona Matilde? DM?

Works for me, though with a warning as mentioned previously - we have a lot of new single-quinta brands in recent years. I've started using a small q in front for some purposes, i.e. for this I would use qDM. I'm not expecting to backward fit, though I personally am using e.g. qLR instead of LR now, and this could potentially help if the expansion of SQ brands continues.

Is there a Dow Quinta d… M… (other than the very recherché “Dow’s Q de M” 1887, on page 99 (edit: also p444) of the first edition of the book)? If not, then DM works for me, which wouldn’t be confused with

VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria

[PhilW]

SE : Quinta de Santa Eufémia (qSE for me)
CSE : Casa de Santa Eufémia

We don’t use a ‘Q’ because it is a low-information word, much as we don’t use a ‘d’ for ‘do’.

But in this case the ‘Q’ is high-information. Unless the Quinta is manifestly the senior property (howsoever specified), I’d prefer QSE and CSE.

No real disagreement here. I've started using a lower-case q for some of these because it seems natural and I remember what it means more easily that way - and lower case since it's low-information (albeit discriminatory) - but understand that on here we'll stay with LR rather than qLR since non-discriminatory (for now at least) and shorter (brevity preference when using abbreviations for placemats). If we're adding the q/Q (for discrimination and/or other reasons) then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

[jdaw1]

then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

Any preference between CSE and cSE?

[PhilW]

If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

[PhilW]

then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

Any preference between CSE and cSE?

No preference. If there were lots of "Casa ..." in the same way we have lots of "Quinta ..." then I suspect we would colloquially drop the Casa in the same way we often drop the Quinta do/da/... and refer just to Vesuvio, La Rosa, etc; in which case a lower-case c would make sense; but as a one-off this might be considered a more significant part of the name, hence upper-case might make sense. No strong feeling either way.

[jdaw1]

If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

So these are ROC, with a known particular English bottler ⟹︎ ROC.

[jdaw1]

then I have a minor preference for qSE over QSE (since the q/Q *always* means q/Quinta).

Any preference between CSE and cSE?

No preference. If there were lots of "Casa ..." in the same way we have lots of "Quinta ..." then I suspect we would colloquially drop the Casa in the same way we often drop the Quinta do/da/... and refer just to Vesuvio, La Rosa, etc; in which case a lower-case c would make sense; but as a one-off this might be considered a more significant part of the name, hence upper-case might make sense. No strong feeling either way.

I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

[PhilW]

If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

So these are ROC, with a known particular english bottler ⟹︎ ROC.

More confusion I think.

Please compare with:
(a) Warre 1970, bottled by BBR, sold as "Berry's Own Selection 1970 vintage port" ⟹︎ BBR70
(b) Warre 1970, bottled by BBR, sold as "Warre 1970 vintage port, bottled by BBR" ⟹︎ W70

Similarly:
(c) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Real Companhia General, sold as "Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963 vintage port" ⟹︎ ROC63
(d) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Real Companhia General, sold as "Adam's 1963 vintage port" ⟹︎ Ad63
(e) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Adam's, sold as "Adam's 1963 vintage port, bottled by Adam's" ⟹︎ Ad63
(f) Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963, bottled by Adam's, sold as "Royal Oporto Carvalhas 1963 vintage port, bottled by Adam's" ⟹︎ ROC63
I'm only aware of the existence of (c) and (d), and suspect Alex was asking about (d).
I do not know whether Adam's ever performed the bottling of any vintages sold under their brand.

[jdaw1]

That’s fair.

Are BBR70 and W70 the same?

[Alex Bridgeman]

That’s fair.

Are BBR70 and W70 the same?

We don’t know. Nor do BBR. Perhaps Peter Symington knows but no-one else seems to be certain.

[Alex Bridgeman]

If it is an Adam’s blend, it is Ad. If it is Royal Oporto bottled by Adam’s, it is RO. Perhaps I am failing to understand the question.

If I may re-state: If it is an Adam’s branded bottle, it is Ad. If it is branded as Royal Oporto (bottled by Adam’s), it is RO.
I believe the bottles being referred to are Adam's brand, which happen to contain ROC (and hence are Adam's bottled RO/ROC, but it is the label brand which leads).

So these are ROC, with a known particular English bottler ⟹︎ ROC.

I’m with Phil on this one. Adams is a brand in the Royal Oporto Portfolio just as Real Companhia Velha is, or Real Vinícola or a number of other brands. We don’t know if the same wine was blended and bottled under a myriad of labels or whether each brand had its own, unique blend.

If we have referred to the wine as Ad in the past, let’s adopt that as an agreed use. We have seen and posted tasting notes on several vintages of Adams Ports.

[PhilW]

The following:
Ad = Adam's
DM = Quinta Dona Matilde
DuCM = Duorum Castelo Melhor
EV = Quinta da Eira Vehla
FH = Factory House
cSE = Casa de Santa Eufémia
qSE = Quinta de Santa Eufémia
are all now added to list, as I believe we have general agreement on these.

The one still potentially at issue might be EV for "Quinta da Eira Vehla" which I have included above since all of the examples I can find across the various ownerships, all seem to use "Quinta da Eira Vehla" as the brand whether then in small text below it happens to be shipped/produced/bottled by Hunt Roope or Martinez Gassiot, so despite different ownership the brand was still the same, hence same abbreviation.

[MigSU]

The following:
Ad = Adam's
DM = Quinta Dona Matilde
DuCM = Duorum Castelo Melhor
EV = Quinta da Eira Vehla
FH = Factory House
cSE = Casa de Santa Eufémia
qSE = Quinta de Santa Eufémia
are all now added to list, as I believe we have general agreement on these.

The one still potentially at issue might be EV for "Quinta da Eira Vehla" which I have included above since all of the examples I can find across the various ownerships, all seem to use "Quinta da Eira Vehla" as the brand whether then in small text below it happens to be shipped/produced/bottled by Hunt Roope or Martinez Gassiot, so despite different ownership the brand was still the same, hence same abbreviation.

"Velha", not "Vehla".

[PhilW]

"Velha", not "Vehla".

Thank you. And damn, as I've made that mistake in a lot of places. Damn. Thank you again though.

[Glenn E.]

CSE and QSE used to be the same estate. There was a falling out. The stocks and property were divided. Now we have two.

I do not like using cSE or qSE as we generally only use lower case letters when they are part of the same word as a prior capital letter. I would prefer SE(c) and SE(q) if one feels that 'c' and 'q' are simply clarifiers, but my first choice would be all caps for both.

[jdaw1]

I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

This seems to be consensus.

I do not like using cSE or qSE as we generally only use lower case letters when they are part of the same word as a prior capital letter.

This rule has historically applied to lower case letters which are not the first character of the abbreviation. Could the rule be different for commencing characters?

As the abbreviations are used on the placemats, for which concision is a strong desideratum, I oppose the parentheses.

[Glenn E.]

I much prefer they match: {qSE, cSE}, or {QSE, CSE}.

This seems to be consensus.

I do not like using cSE or qSE as we generally only use lower case letters when they are part of the same word as a prior capital letter.

This rule has historically applied to lower case letters which are not the first character of the abbreviation. Could the rule be different for commencing characters?

As the abbreviations are used on the placemats, for which concision is a strong desideratum, I oppose the parentheses.

As these are the first proposals to break the above rule, I would argue that the above rule was as I stated and not as you stated. To be clear it was not explicit, but since no prior examples of an abbreviation with a lower case first letter exist it is difficult to prove that it was allowed.

I do not like the look. iT rEmInDs Me Of MiLlEnIaLs AnD ZeNnIaLs TyPiNg LiKe ThIs.

BuT iF i Am ThE sOlE nAy VoTe, I wIlL cOnCeDe.

[MigSU]

I vote for QSE and CSE.

[jdaw1]

As these are the first proposals to break the above rule, I would argue that the above rule was as I stated and not as you stated. To be clear it was not explicit, but since no prior examples of an abbreviation with a lower case first letter exist it is difficult to prove that it was allowed.

What I meant to say that was the previously observed behaviour was consistent with an exception for the first character; not that it necessarily was that. I accept that Ockham’s razor favours your interpretation.

I vote for QSE and CSE.

No objection from me. Are there any objections?