Port brand abbreviations
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Quinta da Pacheca has released VP in 2000, 2016, 17, 19, and 21 (that I know of).
Gaivosa has at least 2003, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2020, as well as their 'Amphitheatrum' series.
Tecedeiras has 2003, 2007, 2008, 2016, and 2017 (that I'm aware of).
Gaivosa has at least 2003, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2020, as well as their 'Amphitheatrum' series.
Tecedeiras has 2003, 2007, 2008, 2016, and 2017 (that I'm aware of).
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
Agree with Pa, was going to suggest the same if we passed the 3+ vintages test.jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024Website has multiple tawnies, two LBVs, and zero VPs. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation. But anyway, I’m changing my mind for this temporary abbreviation to Pa.jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).
Agree with Gv
Agree with Tc.
Agree.
Agree - reluctantly, since non-obvious, and noting shortage of P.. abbreviations for any future brands, but I don't have better suggestion.jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:18 Thu 16 May 2024Website has VPs 2014, ’16, ’17, ’18. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Po?jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:17 Wed 15 May 2024Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).
My alternate (VPID indexing) use of q pre-pend for Quinta do/da/... brands would facilitate qPe == Quinta do Pessegueiro vs Pe == Petre on this occasion, but would still be very tight/problematic for the future with the growing number of single quinta brands.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Given these agreements, and other silence, all added to the first post.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include Cô and Ct. Preferences?
I slightly prefer Cô, but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
I slightly prefer Cô, but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
This occurred during my vacation, but I agree ex post facto.jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:37 Sun 19 May 2024 Given these agreements, and other silence, all added to the first post.
P_ is definitely becoming problematic.
Pego, Passadouro, and Petre all prevent obvious abbreviations for Pessegueiro, and Petre is itself limited by Portal while Passadouro is limited by Pacheca.
I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.jdaw1 wrote: ↑16:03 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include Cô and Ct. Preferences?
I slightly prefer Cô, but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port brand abbreviations
I do prefer to use non-exotic accents, as doing might, in the future, lessen problems such as:
Non-exotic? My restriction is to those present in almost of typefaces. So not the macron present in Sērikos, but yes to the basics: acute, grave, circumflex, umlaut ≈ diaeresis, cedilla, ring (yes, I know).
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
+1Glenn E. wrote:I would prefer not to use special characters, so it would be Ct for me.jdaw1 wrote: ↑16:03 Thu 15 Aug 2024 Quinta da Côrte has left Delaforce. Therefore recent Côrte Ports cannot be DfC. Obvious candidates include Cô and Ct. Preferences?
I slightly prefer Cô, but the preference over Ct is not stronger than slight.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Every use of a non-basic character requires me to Google the short code for it. Ergo, basic characters only if at all possible.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
I’m another vote for basic characters only. Quinta da Côrte for me is Ct
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
I’m outvoted 3:½. Ct it is.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
We have:
RPE = Ramos Pinto Quinta de Ervamoira
How about FGC? Or failing that, GCz
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.
However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.
However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
FGC is OK with me. I prefer the more concise FC, but the former also works. Also FCz works.
GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.
GCz smells of Graham — blackcurrant sweetness so obvious — so no, not this.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Why FGC? I saw only one reference to Guimaraens VPs at that link, and that reference followed one to Fonseca VPs.
It seems to me that FC is the correct abbreviation unless there is evidence of a label for Fonseca Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro.
But more importantly, don't we usually require a minimum of 3 vintages to be awarded an abbreviation?
Edit: I now see the reference - the 1982 tasting. Winesearcher believes there was also a 2015, but none are available. That's still only 2 and we usually require 3.
It seems to me that FC is the correct abbreviation unless there is evidence of a label for Fonseca Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro.
But more importantly, don't we usually require a minimum of 3 vintages to be awarded an abbreviation?
Edit: I now see the reference - the 1982 tasting. Winesearcher believes there was also a 2015, but none are available. That's still only 2 and we usually require 3.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port brand abbreviations
PhilW wrote: ↑21:07 Tue 03 Sep 2024 There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.
However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.
Building on these, and noting that Fonseca isn't mentioned, and not liking Gm at the start as it nods to GM, how about GuC?
Re: Port brand abbreviations
GuC works for me.flash_uk wrote: ↑15:34 Wed 04 Sep 2024PhilW wrote: ↑21:07 Tue 03 Sep 2024 There are several vintages of Guimaraens-branded Vintage Port (1931, 42, 44, 52, 58) which have no mention of Fonseca on their label, and thus should perhaps have their own abbreviation, such as Gm (rather than FG which has typically been used previously). If that were adopted, then the 1982 Guimaraens Cruzeiro would perhaps most appropriately then be GmC.
However, I would be OK with FGC as minimal change and rare use.Building on these, and noting that Fonseca isn't mentioned, and not liking Gm at the start as it nods to GM, how about GuC?
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port brand abbreviations
GiC would come nearer the correct pronunciation of the house. Objections?
Re: Port brand abbreviations
That also works for me.
Though I must admit that it seems... somehow... a bit odd. Yes, it does match pronunciation, but somehow in my mind the 'i' doesn't correlate to the name.
Glenn Elliott
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
Prefer Gu to Gi, but prepared to be out voted (and accepting others' dislike for Gm), agreeing with consequent GuC/GiC.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.
Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.
Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
I don't really like the idea, either, but after re-reading Phil's post and reviewing the Ports in question, they do not say Fonseca on the label. It seems that there were Ports released by Guimaraens, at least 2 of which were also labeled Quinta do Cruizeiro, that were somehow separate from Fonseca. Or were just labeled weirdly? Both of the Cruzeiro-labeled versions (1982, and allegedly 2015 per winesearcher.com) came well after Fonseca was using Guimaraens as a second label.Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑23:16 Wed 04 Sep 2024 I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.
Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.
I'm still fine with using FGC for those 2 vintages, provided we do not introduce Gu or Gi for the non-Fonseca, Guimaraens-branded VPs that Phil mentioned in his original post. This seems to be a rather confusing situation and perhaps some official clarification of the Guimaraens-branded VPs.
Glenn Elliott
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
But we do use Ct for Quinta da Corte, vs DfC for Delaforce Quinta da Corte (since the latter was established first).Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑23:16 Wed 04 Sep 2024 I really don’t like using Gu or Gi for Guimaraens wines. We don’t use FGu of FGi, we use FG for the second label from Fonseca.
Therefore I’m voting / lobbying for FGC or - if we have to - FCz.
I strongly dislike FCz since the bottle is branded Guimaraens with no mention of Fonseca, so an abbreviation with no mention of Guimaraens does not make sense to me.
n.b. While I would personally have a separate abbreviation for Guimaraens (Gm/Gu) where Fonseca is not mentioned, I'm not against staying with FG as a compromise; and in either case the addition of the C (GmC/GuC/FGC) for current placemat doesn't necessarily have to be set in stone since it's a one-off.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?
Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port brand abbreviations
I have asked David G. by WhatsApp and by email.Glenn E. wrote: ↑16:06 Thu 05 Sep 2024Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?
Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
But it's harvest time, so don't expect a reply until December.jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:01 Thu 05 Sep 2024I have asked David G. by WhatsApp and by email.Glenn E. wrote: ↑16:06 Thu 05 Sep 2024Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?
Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Port brand abbreviations
The history of Guimaraens is very complicated. However, Fonseca and Guimaraens were two separate companies until Alistair merged them, IIRC in the late 60’s. I will look back through an old article I wrote on the history of the company (old computer and need to find the file. But it was an article on FTLOP).
Edit: Found it. 1967 they were merged.
https://www.fortheloveofport.com/fonsec ... orce-club/
Edit: Found it. 1967 they were merged.
https://www.fortheloveofport.com/fonsec ... orce-club/
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Huh. Yes, that's a rather complex history! I have seen and tasted Fonseca Guimaraens Ports from both 1964 and 1965. I assume TFP owned both prior to the merge?Andy Velebil wrote: ↑00:41 Fri 06 Sep 2024 The history of Guimaraens is very complicated. However, Fonseca and Guimaraens were two separate companies until Alistair merged them, IIRC in the late 60’s. I will look back through an old article I wrote on the history of the company (old computer and need to find the file. But it was an article on FTLOP).
Edit: Found it. 1967 they were merged.
https://www.fortheloveofport.com/fonsec ... orce-club/
Winesearcher has greyed-out vintages going back to 1919 for Fonseca Guimaraens, but without being able to see pictures associated with those listings I suspect that some (all?) of them are actually just Guimaraens and not Fonseca Guimaraens.
Glenn Elliott
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
But you could do a VPID search.Glenn E. wrote:Winesearcher has greyed-out vintages going back to 1919 for Fonseca Guimaraens, but without being able to see pictures associated with those listings I suspect that some (all?) of them are actually just Guimaraens and not Fonseca Guimaraens.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Vista Alegre: VA?
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
VA is an unfortunate abbreviation.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Indeed. But I cannot think of a better abbreviation to use.
But also... the company is Vista Alegre, but the brand is Vallegre. I think that means that the abbreviation should be derived from Vallegre, though even in that case I cannot think of anything better than VA. Though I believe in that case it should be Va?
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port brand abbreviations
https://www.vallegre.pt/en/vallegre/
V’s in use:
V’s in use:
V = Quinta do Vesuvio
VC = Capela da Quinta do Vesuvio
VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria
VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira
Vl = Quinta do Vallado
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Vr = Porto Valriz
VS = Vieira de Sousa
Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo
VZ = Van Zeller
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Va would seem more appropriate.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Now that you mention it, you're absolutely right. I don't recall ever seeing a Vallegre Port.M.Charlton wrote: ↑23:14 Wed 18 Sep 2024 My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.
VA it is, then. Good luck, Vista Alegre.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Huh. I do have Port in my cellar labeled with both, but not any that is just labeled with Vallegre.M.Charlton wrote: ↑23:14 Wed 18 Sep 2024 My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en
High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.
VA it is.
Glenn Elliott
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.
Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand. (Their Peace & Love brand has, so far, only been used for non Vintage Ports.)
We need an abbreviation for them.
P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca
Which really only leaves Pn.
Any objections?
Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand. (Their Peace & Love brand has, so far, only been used for non Vintage Ports.)
We need an abbreviation for them.
P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca
Which really only leaves Pn.
Any objections?
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Diez - Dz or DZ?
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
DzJustin K wrote:Diez - Dz or DZ?
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Pn seems appropriate.Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024 Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.
Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand. (Their Peace & Love brand has, so far, only been used for non Vintage Ports.)
We need an abbreviation for them.
P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca
Which really only leaves Pn.
Any objections?
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.
Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand.
No objection to Pn.
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Ugh.Alex Bridgeman wrote: ↑14:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024 P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca
Which really only leaves Pn.
Any objections?
Pn should be Pintas and Pi should be Piano.
It's confusing enough to me to suggest that, if Pi cannot be changed, then we should use Po for Piano.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port brand abbreviations
Palmer? Pl or Pm?PhilW wrote: ↑13:51 Tue 28 May 2013Pa = Quinta da Pacheca
PA = Quinta da Pedra Alta
Pç = Poças
Pe = Petre
Pg = Quinta do Pego
Pi = Pintas
Pn = Piano by Carlos Alonso Douro Wines
Po = Quinta do Pessegueiro
Pr = Quinta da Prelada
Ps = Quinta do Passadouro
Pt = Quinta do Portal
Pt+ = Quinta do Portal+
PtM = Portal Quinta dos Muros
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
Pl. Pm easily confused with Pn.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations
Referencing previous comments:
Has any vintage port been released under the Palmer brand? (I only aware of their colheitas).
If not, perhaps no need to add Palmer to formal abbreviation list, unless we wish to extend to colheitas now.