A plea to the Symingtons

[benread]

The great advantage of the web is that you have freedom to write at any length you choose. It is therefore extremely disappointing when Port websites have not more information than will fit on the back of a postage-stamp and when it looks like it was written by a marketing consultant rather than someone involved in the trade.

A good Marketing Consultant will actually make sure it looks like it is written by someone in the trade, but isn't! Many (not all) experts, whatever the field (and I work in insurance!) are very knowledgeable, but incapable of communicating their knowledge in a form understood by, or meaningful to their customers!

[Alex Bridgeman]

This has been an extremely interesting thread to read. I know that we are relatively few on The Port Forum and a larger number of FTLOP but still small when compared to the overall market for port - but we are the passionate ambassadors for the product and heavily promote the purchase of port. It would so help our efforts if there was content available on the web rather than marketing ephemera. Even if this content was accessed from an html page that we could make our default home page for any particular shipper - that way, you could have both styles available for visitors.

[JacobH]

A good Marketing Consultant will actually make sure it looks like it is written by someone in the trade, but isn't! Many (not all) experts, whatever the field (and I work in insurance!) are very knowledgeable, but incapable of communicating their knowledge in a form understood by, or meaningful to their customers!

Oh, yes, I do agree. The thrust of my comment was that when writing copy for a campaign the better the marketing consultant the less visible his involvement will be to an outsider!

Technical sheets: I love these and wish every producer would put links to easily accessable and printable. I understand for older vintages this may not be possible, but at least for newer ones...for ALL products.

The best technical sheets are not ones which simply list the technical details but which also give some more general information which is written in an informative style. One advantage of these is that if you are organising a tasting, these can be printed off to be handed out. The best I've seen have not been to do with wine but those produced by Neal's Yard for cheese (e.g. this); they give some technical information (perhaps there could be more); a tasting note; and a lot of interesting information about the diary and the cheese.

I would also say that although creating a decent website is an expensive process, much of the information which I think could go on them are already held by the shippers. For example, many shippers have had books expensively produced about their firms' histories. They could be cannibalised for website copy, especially since the books are rarely available outside Oporto and so are read by few. The Symington's late, lamented, Vintage Port Site meant that lots of historic harvest reports were already available in electronic format; they could be used to populate the individual brand websites within the groups. Technical information about recent vintages is probably already held electronically and so, again, could be used without too much expense.

[Alex Bridgeman]

And technical information that is only available in printed form can be scanned and made available in PDF format.

JDAW and I were exchanging PMs earlier today and a brainwave struck me. Wouldn't it be wonderful if one of the Port Producers created a Wikipedia style community on their website where not only the site owner could leave information, but so could we. Port Lovers United - we could post our tasting notes and leave copies of all the little facts and snippets that we uncover through our voracious appetites to learn more about the product we love - like the fact that there were only 600 (if I remember correctly) bottles produced of the Vargellas Ruby Reserve bottled for the investiture of the Prince of Wales in 1969. A Wiki-style page for Vargellas ports through the years with this fact and a tasting note included would be interesting to people like us.

But are we the noisy minority? What does the silent majority want?

[jdaw1]

Getting corporations to do sensible things with their own information is hard enough. They are very unlikely to allow their brand to be attached to something on which malefactors could scribble unwantedly.

Rephrased, there is such a wiki, and it is called ThePortForum.com.

[g-man]

I would imagine, as our posters have mentioned, that a majority of fine port drinkers will be those who picked up a bottle of, ie., Fonseca 1985 and were wondering how to handle and decant it.

Also, one has to determine what market the port makers are going for. "Fancy" intros depicting wave in and out effects, fancy lettering, is not goign to attract the 21-35 male population. You'll go right back into the port is for old english men mentality.

[DRT]

Getting corporations to do sensible things with their own information is hard enough. They are very unlikely to allow their brand to be attached to something on which malefactors could scribble unwantedly.

Rephrased, there is such a wiki, and it is called ThePortForum.com.

Agreed. I can't imagine any producer of anything wanting an area on their public-facing website where consumers could post their random thoughts.

I find it quite amusing that the most informative and useful port-related website I have ever seen (apart from and ) was http://www.thevintageportsite.co.uk which was created at least 7 years ago, was quite basic in design and contained lots of useful information, including (nearly) all the vintages from first and second labels of the Symington VP brands going back to 1900. I do hope that content is re-used in their new site!!!!

[jdaw1]

Re-reading what has been said here, the best advice was given by Jacob:

the content of the website should be so informative, useful and interesting that your own staff use it as the primary source of reference when they are looking up anything that is not commercially confidential

This has the extra merit that, because your own people use the website, errors and bugs will be noticed, and the whole thing will be maintained.

[oscar quevedo]

Julian, well done!! This is precious content for the Port trade and I foresee some refreshing in the site mentioned above. So does your comments will help me to fix some sections of the blog.

Oscar

[jdaw1]

Quevedo, quevedoportwine.com

Apologies: I should have reviewed this with the first batch.

The front page is a blog. That’s good: I have arrived at Quevedo Port, and already the people in charge have competent things to say, rather than incompetent marketing to hide the absence of things to say. This alone has Quevedo in the top few port sites.

There are imperfections. The quiz has fixed formatting. Doubtless it worked on the developer’s version of Windows, but on Mac Firefox some words are hidden. Having completed the quiz, guessing the hidden words, it returns me to the start, score not shown. I suspect that an evil script has clashed with (previously mentioned) NoScript.

So let’s go to the most important section, Wines (behold a link!). ‟Fun Ports”? Does that mean that Oscar doesn’t take these products seriously; that we shouldn’t; or that Quevedo Vintage Port, in a separate category, isn’t fun? Answer carefully. Anyway, I avert my gaze from such a category, going directly to ‟Ruby and Vintage”, which unstatedly includes LBV. A small detail: state the name of the Port clearly. Apart from a smudge in the label, the d’Agodinho looks just like the plain Quevedo.

So, Download PDF. This is not a PDF, this is a zip file. Have you tested this on every mobile device? No, thought not. The zip contains two PDFs, one English, one Portuguese. Instead have two links, Technical specification, English and Especificações técnicas, Português, both to actual PDFs.

The content of the English PDF is broadly OK. However:
• Why is the picture of the label so tiny?
• Pairing suggestions date fast. Perhaps chocolate works today, but will it work in five years time? In ten? Will the PDF really be updated? No, thought not. Are there any pairing suggestions that aren’t applicable to most young port? If not, delete.
• Alcohol; total acidity; pH good man, thank you. But no Baumé?
• State how many bottles of each size () were released.
• And the release price.

Summary: this is a good website. There is real content, and not much glitz. Some details of implementation are imperfect, but it is impressive that such a small company can so massively outperform nearly all the others.

[jdaw1]

"Website Age-Verification Pages (AVPs)
!
Nonetheless, in the interests of deterring underage visitors and demonstrating commitment to best practice, companies should require visitors to a dedicated brand website to navigate an AVP before being allowed entry to the site."

This is a fine example of security theatre: doing ‘security’-like things in order to be seen to do so. Utterly ineffective, except at causing minor annoyance. So:

Please, how does a member of the public make a suggestion for a change in the Code of Practice?

We regularly review our Code of Practice through a process of open consultation. The last such review took place in 2006 and details can be found on our website:

http://www.portman-group.org.uk/?pid=26&level=3

We shall be reviewing our Code later this year and we shall add you to our database to ensure you are made aware of the consultation so that you might respond. In the meantime, if you have a suggestion for a change, feel free to put that suggestion to me so that we can, if we decide it appropriate, include it within the consultation.

If anybody has any suggestions beyond that which is obviously my view, please PM me.

[JacobH]

The method of AVP should require the visitor actively to input their date of birth (e.g. from a drop-down menu) rather than allow access through clicking a default option. This is because the former method is the most stringent and the most effective deterrent to under-18s.

I wonder what the evidence is for this proposition, beyond the fact that it is such a hassle it is likely to be an effective deterrent to those above 18 from using the site, too.

I further note that:

• The Portman Group is a UK trade association and pressure group not a government regulator;
• That in its Code, the use of an AVP is in a "Best Practice Annex" which "does not form part of the Code’s requirements and failure to comply with the advice in this annex is therefore not a breach of the Code";
• That only 3 out of the 9 members of the Portman Group have an AVP on their website;
• With the possible exception of Diageo, members of the Portman Group generally only produce spirits, alcopops, beers and ciders not fine wine which gives them a different level of corporate social responsibility; and
• Age for legal purchase of alcohol varies by country: are these AVPs subtle enough to filter out 19-year-old Americans and keep in 17-year-old Germans?

I would see no reason for a Port shipper to place such an AVP on his or her corporate website, unless there are specific rules about it in Portugal or other countries. Moreover, if one would be placed, I would have thought a "Only use this website if you legally able to buy alcohol" would suffice.

[uncle tom]

All I can add is to say that I have most thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread..

..and data! Yes, please, lots of it..

Is it too much to ask the producers (including the Symingtons..) to announce on their websites every new product, every new bottling, every new release..

..seems a very small chore..

Tom

[jdaw1]

Mr Ferriss knows his audience. ‟Marketing is defining your most likely 1,000 evangelists, and defining your product to reach them,” he says.

We aren’t a thousand, but we are some of your best evangelists.

[jdaw1]

• That only 3 out of the 9 members of the Portman Group have an AVP on their website;

Not quite fair.

• AB InBev, Carlsberg UK, and Heineken UK do have AVPs on the main site.
• Beverage Brands (UK), Diageo Great Britain, Magners GB, Molson Coors Brewing Company (UK), and Pernod Ricard UK do not have an AVP on the main corporate site, but do on the brand-specific sites.
• Only Bacardi Brown-Forman Brands allows access to brand information without passing an AVP, and that information is thin and unglitzy.

[Christian]

Hello Julian - thanks for your interesting posts. Many web-pages have a lot of room for improvement. My dream would be that the big port wine shippers would scan all their archives and make them available to the public - I would for sure spend a lot of evenings going through the old documents (and I would consume a lot of port while doing it, no doubt).
Here is a nice little web-page that I really liked: http://www.quintadovalemeao.pt
After a quick intro, that doesn't hurt too much and disappears after a few seconds, there is well structured web-page with some good content and especially a lot of high-res photos. All their wines are quickly introduced - and here is in my eyes the only weak point of this page: I would wish to see some fact sheets for the port vintages 2000 - 2004. They have however very interesting fact sheets for the last few vintages.
This web-page is in my eyes well done - of course I would like to see way more about the history of this very interesting Quinta - but this site is in my eyes a good compromise between "easy to navigate" and to provide the visitor with some useful information.

[g-man]

Hello Julian - thanks for your interesting posts. Many web-pages have a lot of room for improvement. My dream would be that the big port wine shippers would scan all their archives and make them available to the public - I would for sure spend a lot of evenings going through the old documents (and I would consume a lot of port while doing it, no doubt).
Here is a nice little web-page that I really liked: http://www.quintadovalemeao.pt
After a quick intro, that doesn't hurt too much and disappears after a few seconds, there is well structured web-page with some good content and especially a lot of high-res photos. All their wines are quickly introduced - and here is in my eyes the only weak point of this page: I would wish to see some fact sheets for the port vintages 2000 - 2004. They have however very interesting fact sheets for the last few vintages.
This web-page is in my eyes well done - of course I would like to see way more about the history of this very interesting Quinta - but this site is in my eyes a good compromise between "easy to navigate" and to provide the visitor with some useful information.

yes indeed, the right way is to have a small intro that doesn't offend the page embeded so that when visiting it doesn't obstruct you from visiting where you wanted to.

[Cynthia J]

Just a note - the Vintage Port Site will be back - but rather than just scrubbing out the mal-ware code and re-posting we are taking the opportunity to review and re-design. Bear with us, we are working to make it worth the wait. And thank you every one for the comments and the passion you bring to this review and discussion. Cheers! Cynthia (Cronista, Graham's Blog & FB)

[jdaw1]

Malvedos Blog, malvedos.wordpress.com

Like all blogs, the Malvedos Blog contains a collection of topical comments. This review concentrates on the November 2010 Douro Insider.

And read it. Wow!

1. It is full of real facts. It is so obviously written by somebody who lives there, who has been watching developments and knows the facts. Delight in the knowledge in the likes of

This time of year almost inevitably marks the start of the pruning season, the single activity that takes up the greatest amount of time during the viticultural year. It can be tedious, so the caseiros will make an effort to intersperse days of pruning with other activities. It also gives the fingers and wrists a chance to recover from the very strenuous business of spending eight or nine hours with secateurs in hand.

2. It has also been proof-read. The sort of people that know this much about viniculture are generally busy doing it. Somebody with competence at writing in English has done something between tidying and re-writing, and done it well.

3. Graphics are light (that is, a picture rather than a Flash disaster), and appropriate.

4. It isn’t stale. Some competitors’ blogs have longs gaps between posts. Like a diet, they were started in a fit of enthusiasm, are dropped quietly, then remembered and given a little attention, before the pork pies beckon once more. The Malvedos blog is updated at least every month.

5. Quite right to allow comments even though the bad people might make necessary moderation, or a more aggressive CAPTCHA.

What’s wrong?

(A) It is what it is. As a blog, it is excellent. But that means that it lacks things: lists of products, detailed specifications, and other static or semi-static information. As a blog, it is exellent.

(B) Charts are good. They show that the writer has data, and shows us that data. But care is needed: a writer who has been looking at this type of chart for years needs less labelling than we do. It is easy to overlook our absence of experience with the writer’s data.

What is the green line? The average over some unspecified history (hopefully 1756 to 2010) of each day’s high? Of each day’s average from 9am until 6pm? And are the bars 2010’s variation from that mean? If correct, strange. It would be more natural to have shown 2011’s actual temp, and 2011’s difference from the mean. Or show average and 2010. And also to have labelled more clearly. But this grump is a detail, readily repaired the chart previous to this one is clear.

Summary. An excellent blog. Competitors: behold, and weep.

[Christian]

Hi Julian, have you seen that Symington's new web-page is online?
http://www.symington.com
On the first look, it looks like they did a really good job... Being in the office at the moment, I don't have much time.. but I'm sure that tonight I will spend some time on this page... I saw a few little glitches - but it might be that my internet browser is just too old... There seem to be nice photos and also quite a bit of information on their site...
The one thing that I don't like is the fact that they have no link to ThePortForum.com... but to other port wine related pages... I think some of us here have pretty good connections to the Symingtons.. Is there anybody that could ask them to link our site to their list?

[jdaw1]

Ok, so I tell symington.com that I am born on 1-Jan-1910. It offers to remember me good!

Click on Graham’s port. Immediately: ‟Please enter your date of birth:”. No, go away. I did that barely 10 seconds ago.

Having been quickly annoyed, I will delay a fuller report until I have more time.

[jdaw1]

Wednesday 20 April 2011

Summer consultation planned for alcohol Code
Code of Practice on responsible alcohol marketing to undergo public review
The Portman Group is undertaking a full public consultation on its Code of Practice on the Naming Packaging and Promotion of Alcoholic Drinks which regulates pre-packaged alcohol marketing in the UK.

We promised to carry out this review as part of the Responsibility Deal on Public Health announced by Health Secretary, Rt Hon Andrew Lansley MP in March this year. A formal consultation document will be published in the Summer.

The Portman Group Code has been existence since 1996 and, in that time, over 80 products have been found in breach of the rules. A copy of the current Code and annual complaint reports can be read on our website.

If you would like to register your interest in the consultation, or have views about what it should include, please email us via info [edited by jdaw1 to say at the obvious domain] or call us 020 7290 1460.

[jdaw1]

I owe a review of the Symingtons’ new websites. Not forgotten.

[jdaw1]

OK, it was forgotten. I’m not paid to do these things.

Meanwhile, I’m going to re-awaken this website-grump rant. There has been the most important declaration in more than a decade, and perhaps in several. Did the webmasters notice?

Commendations
â—Š The Symingtons’ TheVintagePortSite.com/view.php?id=14658 leads to lots of juicy details. It is excellent. But also see the Hall of Shame.
â—Š Niepoort has an easily findable page on the most recent vintage.
â—Š QuevedoPortWine.com discusses the ’11 declaration.
â—Š As does churchills-port.com.
â—Š And QuintaDoCrasto.pt.
â—Š The Taylor-Fladgate Partnership coped (Croft, Fonseca, Taylor, and Vargellas Vinha Velha). No Skeffington though.
◊ The webmaster of Quinta do Vale Meão has been paying attention.
â—Š QuintaDaRomaneira.pt could have given the declaration more prominence, but the news is findable. And hurray it has facts: ‟Touriga Nacional (80%), Touriga Francesa (15%) and Tinto Cão (5%)”.
â—Š Sogrape knows about its ’11 declaration, in English and Portuguese.

Hall of Shame
• Rozès declared three different 2011s: regular, Pego, and Grifo. And its website’s front page proudly declares 2008.
• Quinta do Tedo made its website after ’07 was declared, and hasn’t updated since.
• Symington.com/section.php?id=339’s most recent news is in October 2012. [Edit on 20 Aug: this page has been back-filled with content. Perhaps somebody reads this forum.]
• QuintaDoVesuvio.com/our_wines.asp ends in 2006. Really, it does. Presumably they sold the estate back to Dona Antonia, who still doesn’t approve of websites. If the SFE and single-brand websites are retired, have them forward to TheVintagePortSite content, rather than leaving the reader stranded.
• Quinta do Noval has a picture of the ’08 bottle, and not a mention of anything more recent.
• Sogevinus.com/kopke/ and KopkePort.com are content-free Flash disaster zones. We have a right to know how sadistically the webmaster is to be punished.
• RamosPinto.com: annoying music, empty news archive. Really.
• QuintaDoPortal.com 2011? Don’t be silly  we never declare years ending in a ‘1’.
• Quinta Vale D. Maria? You know the answer.
• J H Andresen forgot about the web after declaring 2003.
• RealCompanhiaVelha.pt mentions Royal Oporto 2007, which leads to a one-page PDF with a small box of information. Better than nothing. But more and updated every year would be better still.
• DonaMatilde.pt: ‟Dona Matilde’s range of Ports includes a Colheita 2001 and Vintage 2007 and 2009.”
• Senhora do Convento: ‟Available years: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2009”. Allow me to remind you that you are trying to sell bottles of the ’11. They are meant to pay, in part, the bills. Why not be bold, extremely bold, and allow potential customers to know what you have for sale. Wicked capitalism, I know, and doubtless the enslavement of the working man, etc, etc, but useful for paying the salary of the aforementioned working man.
• BaraoDeVilar.com is a page saying ‟This account is suspended” / ‟Esta conta está suspensa”. Forgetting to update your website is bad; forgetting to pay the hosting company is impressively dim-witted.
• I have more sympathy with Wine and Soul, as they haven’t made a website. They didn’t make and forget, they made the correct decision that a website wouldn’t be updated and so would look rubbish, and hence didn’t make. I have some sympathy with that realism.

The IVDP
The IVDP is a bureaucracy needing a job to do in which it can’t do much harm. Could the IVDP help with this? (The Game: IVDP knows of every declaration. Create and maintain a website with one page per declaration: number bottles, ABV, baumé, other stats, source quintas if specified, source varietals if known, declaring company, name of wine, contact info for importers into main markets. The IVDP is not to prohibit the producers doing their own things; not to require that the IVDP do things on their behalf that would fail the ‘no harm’ desideratum. IVDP acts in addition to whatever the producers and importers want to do. No new rules; no new prohibitions. Or the IVDP will be seeing me do you really really want that?)

[Christopher]

Very interesting Julian!
One you missed is Niepoort. I really like the website and the app. They have a simple but stylish front page that allows you to click through straight away to what you want, technical information on the specific vintages fully up to date, harvest reports or news etc
They also generally include production numbers on each vintage, certainly the more recent ones which I find interesting.