ThePortForum.com

Vargellas wrote:No word yet from Taylor Fladgate! I did speak to the buyer at Martignetti, he gave me some background on the bottle. Fredrick said only Taylor could authenticate the bottle. I will keep reaching out.

Try social media.

I have been following this with some interest. I have a price in mind of what i would bid to in auction in the UK but noted the following comment.

that you had spoken to the buyer at Martignetti, and I'm guessing this bottle is in the USA then. If i'm right has it been through any of the auction houses or privately sold by them?

I am located in Springfield VT. Frederic from Matignetti reviewed the pictures I sent, he is under the impression it is NOT a counterfeit, offered up a value. I have been reaching out to companies who can authenticate this bottle and perhaps offer up a value. I am looking for a company in New England, I would bring the bottle in person to the authenticator/appraiser.

Email Junior@vermontel.net

Vargellas wrote:I am located in Springfield VT. Frederic from Matignetti reviewed the pictures I sent, he is under the impression it is NOT a counterfeit, offered up a value. I have been reaching out to companies who can authenticate this bottle and perhaps offer up a value. I am looking for a company in New England, I would bring the bottle in person to the authenticator/appraiser.

Email Junior@vermontel.net

As I said earlier, I see nothing to indicate this bottle is fake. That said, I looked at Martignetti’s lineup of producers they carry and for port it’s pretty horrible. An LBV/10 yr tawny from Dow’s and a few from Noval (10 yr, Black and 2013 VP). That means I would trust nothing they say when it comes to an old obscure Port bottle. Nor would I take any advise on value from a company who doesn’t even care to stock more than a few bottles of Port.

For one bottle like yours, I’d suggest opening it with friends on a special occasion. Have a back up bottle in case it’s not so good. If it’s good, you’ll have a memory you’ll remember for a long time and won’t ever be able to replicate.

And I should add…This thread is searchable, anyone looking for info on your bottle when it comes up for auction will look here and see what’s posted by a wide variety of serious port lovers.

Vargellas wrote:Port Forum,

I have a bottle of 1925 Taylor Fladgate & Yeatman Vargellas port. I am in search of any information about this bottle.

The bottle appears to be a Colheita (single vintage wood aged
Port..not a "Vintage Port") as it has a Selo (paper strip over the top)
that wasn't used until the late 1930's.

In advance thank you all for your information and feedback!

I will be adding more pictures.

Reference later in post

In some way this is a real unicorn of a bottle, as there is so very little to go on to create a market. I can only find one other 1925 vintage (this was a SQVP but from a different lodge) being auction in the UK in the last few years, which realised £300, plus this is one of the most expensive auction houses in the UK, prices seem to go above retail most of the time. if that is of any help.

the vintage of 1925, seems to get mixed reivews in history. I'm not sure i know anyone who has tasted a 1925, there are no tasting notes on this forum for this vintage, which i find interesting.

Vargellas wrote: ↑13:11 Sun 20 Aug 2023 For me the next step would be to find the value of the bottle, I am certainly open to having a seat at a tasting. I am more of a collector of wine, the best part of the wine collecting and tasting is opening a bottle with friends, like minded people!

Again thank you all for your input and passion!!!!!!!!!

Still waiting on a response from Taylor Fladgate.

I'll jump back in again since you've now asked for a value - I'd originally ignored that aspect and focussed solely on "what is it" from your original question, as I assumed you were planning to drink it. Based on the following as noted previously:
- the bottle appears to be a T-stoppered bottle of probably-genuine Taylor 1925 colheita (or possibly LBV)
- likely bottled relatively young (based on tax stamp rather than selo, and use of T-stopper)
- assuming that the T-stopper is not completely detached from the bottle neck (if it is then the value would be near-zero, as it could have been opened and anything put inside).
- noting that the bottle has seeped to an upper/mid-shoulder level, with seepage clear on broken capsule also

The bottle is certainly very unusual and interesting (hence all the discussion here of course) but in the end is likely to be a wine which was bottled without significant aging, and intended to be drunk soon after bottling (hence the T-stopper) rather than aged for many years in bottle.
Given all the above, I would estimate that you might obtain £80-120 depending on the colour of the wine (though personally I don't think it's worth that much given the seepage and T-stopper). You might get more if you capture someone's particular interest, and if you were to hold on to the bottle for a couple more years before selling you might do better as the bottle will then be at its centennial anniversary.

hadge wrote: ↑11:31 Mon 11 Sep 2023 In some way this is a real unicorn of a bottle, as there is so very little to go on to create a market. I can only find one other 1925 vintage (this was a SQVP but from a different lodge) being auction in the UK in the last few years, which realised £300, plus this is one of the most expensive auction houses in the UK, prices seem to go above retail most of the time. if that is of any help.

Assuming that the bottle you are referring to is the one I think it is, that one was a (single quinta) vintage port, very top-shoulder level, no signs of seep, intact seal and driven cork, so much more valuable.

PhilW wrote: ↑13:04 Mon 11 Sep 2023
The bottle is certainly very unusual and interesting (hence all the discussion here of course) but in the end is likely to be a wine which was bottled without significant aging, and intended to be drunk soon after bottling (hence the T-stopper) rather than aged for many years in bottle.
Given all the above, I would estimate that you might obtain £80-120 depending on the colour of the wine (though personally I don't think it's worth that much given the seepage and T-stopper). You might get more if you capture someone's particular interest, and if you were to hold on to the bottle for a couple more years before selling you might do better as the bottle will then be at its centennial anniversary.

this was the value range that i had in mind if i was to bid in auction.

I agree with Phil's assessment of value, and his conditions. I would probably be on the lower end of that range, mostly because I think in USD and would probably be willing to spend maybe $100 just out of curiosity.

This was my email to Neil Kaplan-
13 years ago Taylor Fladgate did reply to my email which I have since deleted. They mentioned this bottle was not for distribution a non-vintage year, rather the bottle was given out by “ the family.”
I have attached some pictures.



Neil's reply---


Nice! And that it was never in commercial distribution explains why I couldn't find anything about it online. It is definitely a most unusual bottle, and one that would be very hard to value as there is no market data for it, and determining what would be a comparable item is challenging. While it could be compared to other Ports from the 1920s, its nature as a private release could either enhance its value due to the rarity or depress it due to the question as to whether it was not released for quality reasons. For what it's worth, Taylor Fladgate Vintage Ports from 1924 and 1927 sell at auction in the $500–$1,000 range, plus buyer's premium. The person who consigns the bottle receives the hammer price, and the auction house makes its money on the buyer's premium. Three bottles of Taylor Fladgate Vargellas Port from 1912 sold at auction for $828.53 each.

As for authenticating the bottle, I believe that would require the cooperation of the winery as there do not seem to be any genuine examples available with which to compare it. Appraising and authenticating it, though, would really only be necessary if you were to sell it, and for the reasons I set out earlier that is a difficult proposition. My personal and professional opinion is that you own a most unique bottle but have little ability to monetize it.

But I thank you for sharing this with me. If you don't mind me asking, how did you acquire it?

Neil Kaplan DipWSET, AAA
Managing Partner, Cork Counsel

2141 Readburn Rd.
Walton, NY 13856
201-256-0074
www.corkcounsel.com
LinkedIn

I am waiting to hear back from Sotheby's, they have received my email it has been forwarded to their wine department.

He’s 100% right. It most likely wasn’t released due to quality issues. If it had been a good year it would have been released. Even if it later turned out to be a good year, one would have seen the company open some for special tastings. To all our collective knowledge that never has happened. Telling…

It has poor condition (mid shoulder).

Neil is again 100% right. You’re trying to monetize a bottle that has little overall value based on condition, lack of track record and assumed quality.

Open it and share with friends.

I am trying to find out the history/background of the bottle and possible value. I have not tried to sell the bottle on this forum or any other forum.

Vargellas wrote:I am trying to find out the history/background of the bottle and possible value. I have not tried to sell the bottle on this forum or any other forum.

Forgive me, I’m confused. You emailed TFP 13 yrs ago and they responded with where the bottle came from. What more specific history do you seek?

You started this thread by asking for information. You then said you recently wrote TFP asking for information. You never mentioned to anyone until today that you had written TFP 13 years ago and received a reply that seems to be sufficient. It would have been real helpful to mention that upfront.
I also find it curious that there's some type of selo or tax stamp and yet the family gave these out and they weren't for distribution? Things are not adding up here and you've been less than forthcoming to a forum that has tried to help you out.

Mike my apologies for being less than forthcoming as you mention in your post. If you would like to talk by phone it is surely a better way to communicate, it can eliminate misinterpretations or vagueness on my part.

Vargellas wrote: ↑18:58 Thu 14 Sep 2023 Mike my apologies for being less than forthcoming as you mention in your post. If you would like to talk by phone it is surely a better way to communicate, it can eliminate misinterpretations or vagueness on my part.

802-885-3555 in my business number, cell is 802-376-9404
Sincerely, Joe Cerniglia

Thanks Joe, but it's a hard pass for me. Maybe it's legit, but there's too many red flags now. Maybe someone will take a chance, but I think it'll be for a much lower price then you had hoped.

I think this is a really easy one ......

Open iit and drink with friends

Love the idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you all again for your valuable information and insight, wish I had your passion for port! As I am sure you have read some of my posts, this bottle is an anomaly for me, it is my only introduction to the port world. I appreciate your patience and understanding in regards to my posting. If you are interested the link below is to a company my father and I started here in VT, I know this is really off topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodchuck_Hard_Cider

Joe Cerniglia

Vargellas wrote:Thank you all again for your valuable information and insight, wish I had your passion for port! As I am sure you have read some of my posts, this bottle is an anomaly for me, it is my only introduction to the port world. I appreciate your patience and understanding in regards to my posting. If you are interested the link below is to a company my father and I started here in VT, I know this is really off topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodchuck_Hard_Cider

Joe Cerniglia

You’ve owned only one bottle of port for, at least, last 13 years. Yet, You’ve been in the alcohol industry for over 30 yrs, until WHC was sold a couple years ago. And this is your only introduction to port…I’m now calling BS.

Your posts now collectively appear to add up to trying to gain legitimacy to a bottle approaching its purported 100th b-day in an effort to raise its value to sell it.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion no matter how wrong! You are 100% wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don’t feel too sorry for Joe, guys. Woodchuck was bought by an Irish company in 2012 for $305 million in 2012 and sold two years ago for $20 million! I remember thhem buying it at the top of the market and soon afterwards all the big companies in the USA launched me to products. I think Joe can take the hit