ThePortForum.com

...that is my question...

Today I stumbled upon an Offley L.B.V. 2000 (bottled 2004), and bought it. The bottle is black (correction: very, very dark green) with a driven cork, and on the bottle it says to store it horizontally. It doesn't say, however, that the L.B.V. is unfiltered or if it should be decanted.

Does anyone know this L.B.V. and whether it should be decanted or not? Or would you advise to decant a L.B.V. anyway?

IIRC the Offley LBV is unfiltered. I must admit that I never decant LBV's but I guess it wouldn't harm the wine if you did.

Yes, is the answer you seek

There are very few Ports in this world that wouldn't benefit from some decanting.

Then my next question about this L.B.V. is: how long must I let it rest before decanting?

If there is sediment in the bottle, it will have stirred up from the transport home. How long would you say I should wait for the sediment to fully settle?

I recently took part in a very interesting experiment where we took a magnum of port and decanted it in 5 different ways:
1) half of the magnum was freehand decanted off the sediment into a clean decanter. This was then subdivided into 3 separate tasting samples:
(i) sample 1 was straight from the freehand decanted sample
(ii) sample 2 was filtered through washed unbleached muslin
(iii) sample 3 was filtered through unwashed unbleached muslin
2) the remainder of the magum was shaken vigorously and then prepared in two ways:
(iv) sample 4 was filtered through unwashed unbleached muslin
(v) sample 5 was filtered through unbleached coffee filter paper

You might wonder why I am telling you all this - it's because despite all my prejudices, I could not detect a significant difference between the 5 samples. There were differences, but no-one around the table could agree on which was the best sample but we could all agree that there was no significant difference arising from the method of decanting.

The conclusion that I drew out of this experiment was that if you want to open and decant a bottle of port in a hurry then you can filter it and not worry about changing the taste significantly. So if you have a funnel and some unbleached coffee filter paper at hand then you can open and decant this bottle whenever you want.

I always decant my red ports, whatever type of port they are (ie. everything from a ruby port like Fonseca's Bin 27 right through the range to the finest Vintage Port). I may not decant a colheita, but most times I will. I would recommend that you decant the Offley LBV at least a couple of hours before you want to start drinking it but then also make a note of the way it changes over time after you decant it.

And if you can use a decanter rather than double decant into a clean empty bottle, this will give a better benefit to the port. I was astonished recently by a demonstration that Roy gave of exactly the benefits of a decanter vs. an empty bottle. We had a vintage port that had been double decanted into an empty bottle for about 9 hours before we started to drink it. When we tasted it, it was very hot and spirity. Roy made us empty the remnants from the bottle and our glasses back into the decanter and swirled the decanter vigorously for a few minutes and left the decanter to stand for about 2 hours. When we came back to the port, it was beautifully balanced, elegant and fruity. All the dominating spiritiness had gone and it was a really lovely port.

And that is part of the fun in tasting ports after different amounts of time in the decanter. You get to see how much they change and when you prefer the taste. I like mine soft and refined with really long times in the decanter (days, even) but I know others who prefer structured and powerful after just 2-3 hours of decanter time.

Have fun and let us know how you get on.

Boa tarde 10anos,

as we are still talking about a 2000 LBV the sediment should not be too heavy, so 12-24 hours upright standing should be sufficient.

One of my next articles is about LBVs as I find it very confusing, wether a LBV is traditionally bottled or not if it doesnt say on the label. A real cork is mostly an indication for an unfiltered LBV. I just had the Offley 2003 LBV and really liked it.

Axel

Thanks for the elaborate answers.

AHB wrote:You might wonder why I am telling you all this - it's because despite all my prejudices, I could not detect a significant difference between the 5 samples. There were differences, but no-one around the table could agree on which was the best sample but we could all agree that there was no significant difference arising from the method of decanting.

Actually I'm not very surprised because a while ago I read somewhere that preventing sediment of entering the mouth is the most important reason for decanting. The analogy with coffee grinds was made, while not affecting the taste, the grinds are rather unpleasant in the mouth. From personal experience I can tell that you'd better leave the yeast deposit in the bottle of certain (Belgian) beers, though...

AHB wrote: And that is part of the fun in tasting ports after different amounts of time in the decanter. You get to see how much they change and when you prefer the taste. I like mine soft and refined with really long times in the decanter (days, even) but I know others who prefer structured and powerful after just 2-3 hours of decanter time.

Have fun and let us know how you get on.

And this is the more debatable reason for decanting, depending on one's taste, as you already mentioned. I happen to have been given a simple carafe a while ago, so I do have the opportunity to decant the Offley L.B.V. and experiment...

Axel P wrote:as we are still talking about a 2000 LBV the sediment should not be too heavy, so 12-24 hours upright standing should be sufficient.

In that case I think next weekend might be a good time to open the Offley L.B.V. 2000.

Axel P wrote:One of my next articles is about LBVs as I find it very confusing, wether a LBV is traditionally bottled or not if it doesnt say on the label. A real cork is mostly an indication for an unfiltered LBV. I just had the Offley 2003 LBV and really liked it.

I also wonder why the IVDP does not require "unfiltered" to be on the bottle if that is the case. I do know that the indication "Traditional" is no longer permitted (since 2002), instead "unfiltered" or "não filtrado" may be put on the label (but is not required).

If you can figure out why the IVDP does or does not regulate that ... I'll vote for you in the upcoming Presidential election here in the States. But who would want the job?




Alex,

I am astonished that you actually were astonished to see what a difference a day makes, er, I mean ... a decanter.

A confusion arises with LBV's partly because of the IVDP's rules changes.

I think I am correct in saying that there are now three official styles of LBV:

Filtered, Unfiltered, and Unfiltered and bottle matured.

The term 'traditional' was outlawed because there was nothing traditional about them.

Offley's LBV's have me a little puzzled though - I have some '84's in my cellar that have driven corks, but no use of the words 'traditional' or 'unfiltered' on the label. The wine is virtually sediment free, and was almost certainly filtered prior to bottling - so the presence of a driven cork is no guarantee of an unfiltered wine!

Tom

Roy Hersh wrote:Alex,

I am astonished that you actually were astonished to see what a difference a day makes, er, I mean ... a decanter.

I was truly astonished at the difference the shape of the decanter made to the development of the wine. Until that time I had always presumed that the act of decanting out of the bottle and exposing the port to air in that way gave the port enough contact with oxygen to allow it to develop properly. I had always been happy to double decant without being concerned with the way that the port would show with little or not intervening time in a decanter.

Your demonstration last October was the first time I have actually compared one receptacle with another and I was astonished at the difference. I would compare the experience to the time that Georg Riedel demonstrated his glass shapes theory to me - and you know the effect that had on me!

Alex

Actually this was to be my next question (following the glasses one). What shapes are recommended? I have a couple of different decanters but favor the ship's decanter shape (giant, wide bottom) to the ovoid shape (more lightbulb-like).

Meanwhile, there is something bizarrely appealing about the Eisch Duck

I think the answer to your questions depends what type of Port you pour into it and on how fast you want the Port in the decanter to develop.
The ship's decanter creates a very large surface to air contact area, the ovoid decanter a smaller one. I'd assume the Port in the ship's decanter develops more quickly. All this is purely hypothetical, though, as I have yet to decant my first Port...

In case of Ports where decanting time should be short (old VP?) I'd choose the ovoid type, otherwise the ship's decanter.

SushiNorth wrote:Actually this was to be my next question (following the glasses one). What shapes are recommended? I have a couple of different decanters but favor the ship's decanter shape (giant, wide bottom) to the ovoid shape (more lightbulb-like).

Meanwhile, there is something bizarrely appealing about the Eisch Duck

I must admit, I love the Eisch Duck shape and will buy one as and when I come across one that is sensibly priced - clearly I won't be buying it new!

I only have a handful of decanters, but the one I use all the time is a ships decanter. This seems to work for me and the wide base and large surface area seems to suit port very well - new or old. The only thing I really vary is the time I allow it to stand before my target drinking time. Old wine gets a relatively short decant and young wine may get as much as 24 hours before I try it.

AHB wrote: The only thing I really vary is the time I allow it to stand before my target drinking time. Old wine gets a relatively short decant and young wine may get as much as 24 hours before I try it.

That sounds like a break with other opinions here for 24-48 hrs of decanting... are there two schools of thought on decanting time for wine older than 20 years, or do you mean REALLY old wine?

Alex, I forgot to ask: do you leave the decanter open or do you put the glass plug (or whatever it's called) back in?

SushiNorth wrote:

AHB wrote: The only thing I really vary is the time I allow it to stand before my target drinking time. Old wine gets a relatively short decant and young wine may get as much as 24 hours before I try it.

That sounds like a break with other opinions here for 24-48 hrs of decanting... are there two schools of thought on decanting time for wine older than 20 years, or do you mean REALLY old wine?

Old wine as referred to above would be 1960 or older.

Young wine would be 1994 or younger.

Things in between get variable treatment, depending on my mood and previous experience. A Warre 1983 could get 12 hours from me but I might well try it at 4, 6, 8 and 10.

Alex

10Anos wrote:Alex, I forgot to ask: do you leave the decanter open or do you put the glass plug (or whatever it's called) back in?

I usually put the stopper back in, but I have no idea whether that makes any difference at all.

Alex

Aha, 'stopper'...I should have known...

Oxidation uses up oxygen, so if the stopper is a snug fit it won't allow the air in the decanter to be refreshed, I guess. This would (theoretically) slow down the development in the decanter. I also assume this is why double decanting, as you described, is less effective (smaller contact area, stoppered bottle...).

I would guess that it makes no difference. Glass stoppers are never airtight and even if they were I don't think the wine would absorb a detectable amount of oxygen over a period of a day or two.

The most effective job a glass stopper does is to keep the flies out of your port in summer

Derek

I stand corrected...

Derek T. wrote:The most effective job a glass stopper does is to keep the flies out of your port in summer

Very good reason... I wouldn't like to decant the port again to get rid of the drowned flies... Might make for some interesting TN, though...

Oxidation uses up oxygen, so if the stopper is a snug fit it won't allow the air in the decanter to be refreshed, I guess. This would (theoretically) slow down the development in the decanter.

While I stand to be proven wrong, it is my belief that the process of decanting causes a small amount of oxygen to dissolve in the wine (all previous oxygenation having long since been consumed by the maturation of the wine)

That fresh oxygen does not (I believe) react immediately with the wine, (or if it does, forms intermediate compounds first) - that then react slowly with the body of the wine. I am not certain if further oxygenation makes any major difference in the short term, but I personally leave stoppers in place.

One noted writer argued that the oxygenation needed to 'breathe' a red table wine could be achieved by briefly swirling the glass - for port at least, I beg to differ...

Tom

Derek T. wrote:I would guess that it makes no difference. Glass stoppers are never airtight and even if they were I don't think the wine would absorb a detectable amount of oxygen over a period of a day or two.

The most effective job a glass stopper does is to keep the flies out of your port in summer

Derek

...but sir, you requested a drink with a little body in it!

One for Conky, eh?

Ghandih wrote:

Derek T. wrote:I would guess that it makes no difference. Glass stoppers are never airtight and even if they were I don't think the wine would absorb a detectable amount of oxygen over a period of a day or two.

The most effective job a glass stopper does is to keep the flies out of your port in summer

Derek

...but sir, you requested a drink with a little body in it!

One for Conky, eh?

That's too good for Conky

Derek