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...when he's not good enough to play for Fiji, has lived in England for 3 years and England are struggling to find a home-grown winger, apparently

For those who don't know this is referring to the English Rugby Union team's latest new player. An ex-Rugby League winger named Lesley Vainikolo.

England are by no means alone in employing the service of foreign players in their national team, my own Scottish team have done it for years, but I do think that this is a very sad and unnecessary development in the game, especially when a team as historically strong as England who have such a huge pool of players to choose from resort to this tactic.

I preferred the days when national teams were made up of nationals, not the best foreigners available.

Derek

Dunno, there's a Tongan on the pitch though.

Still about to lose.

Sorry, I was unreliably informed he was from Fiji.

The least rubbish team won!

Derek

If you live in a Country for, I think, 7 years. If you marry and settle down. If you state you have no intention of returning to your Birthplace. If you then apply for naturalisation, and your granted it.

What is your Nationality???

I didn't know our Forum had its own Bernard Manning!

Alan

Derek keeps returning to his birthplace every week to prove that he's still Tongan.

Hmmm, a slightly moot point as my Nationality would remain British regardless of where I choose to live on the island

According to international Rugby laws you only need to be in the country for 3 years, have not played for your home nation and want a game for the country you happen to be playing club rugby in. No requirement to commit to never returning home, or going to France next year if another club wants to buy you

Anyway, Scotland are just about to get humped by the French so I will be back soon to rant on about how Scotland could do with a few more New Zealanders in the back row

Derek

Another England second half fightback... oh hang on, no, another fightback against England in the second half. England Rubgy team is the new Fulham.

Scotland Rugby team is the new Scotland Rugby team.

KillerB wrote:Scotland Rugby team is the new Scotland Rugby team.

Can't agrue. They were simply awful. I do think there is some significant unrest in the squad and a complete lack of faith and respect for the coach. Rory Lamont, one of our injured warriors, was interviewed during the match and he (a) openly criticised the coach for making tactical changes too late in the game and (b) complained about the try that shouldn't have been a try. Neither of these things would happen if the spirit was good in the team.

As for that try, this is precisley why I do not like having video referees. There are far too many occassions where the referees are abdicating responsibility for making clear-cut decisions, which just slows down the game. You also get this kind of situation where the 4th official gets it wrong and makes the whole thing look stupid. If the referee had simply awarded the try in real-time (because it looked to everyone that it was) there wouldn't have been any fuss.

99.99% of the rugby played around the world survives without the interference of a video ref and I think the game would be better served if it returned to a place where the guy with the whistle had absolute power and control of the game. He will sometime get things wrong but who cares if it returns us to the time when players, comentators and spectators simply accepted his judgement and got on with the game. The way things are going it is only a matter of time before football style whinging at the referee starts to influence and undermine his decision making. The French have already started wearing Christiano Ronald boots

Worrying times indeed

KillerB wrote:England Rubgy team is the new Fulham

They're not that good. Another example of a bad situation existing within the squad and lack of leadership from the coach.

...and when will the media stop blowing smoke up Wilkinson's rear end? There is no doubt that the guy has talent with his boot but apart from that he is often found wanting. He was in the pivotal No 10 spot when it all fell apart yesterday, yet the poor lad who replaced him seemed to take more of the flack. Although, I must admit that the charge-down try for Italy was one of the funniest things I seen all weekend

Derek

If a sports team is pants [technical term - means 'not playing nearly to full potential'] in the first half, and great in the second half, I think this can be attributed to the manager doing his job well at half time. One example of this that springs to mind is Liverpool FC in the European cup final in Istanbul, though the brilliance of _that_ intervention happened to fundamentally be [IMHO] playing the best player in his best position for the second half - hardly the most insightful intervention, and one that suggests the manager got it badly wrong in the first place.

I digress; my conclusion from my initial assertion, once inverted, is that Brian Ashton is rubbish. We've had great first halves then not appeared for the second, and this (I troth) is down to poor management. I have a suspicion we fluked the World Cup, and that what we are seeing now is a better reflection of the state of the team under the current leadership.

On the particular point of Mr W at No.10, I have to agree that he is not bossing things as someone with his experience ought to, even though that was a triffic pass for the first try.

Ghandih wrote:Brian Ashton is rubbish.

Agreed.

Ghandih wrote:we fluked the World Cup

Agreed.

Ghandih wrote:Mr W at No.10...is not bossing things as someone with his experience ought to

Agreed.

Ghandih wrote:that was a triffic pass for the first try.

Agreed.

But, as the old saying goes - one triffic pass doesn't make a swallow.

Derek

Derek T. wrote:...when he's not good enough to play for Fiji, has lived in England for 3 years and England are struggling to find a home-grown winger, apparently

For those who don't know this is referring to the English Rugby Union team's latest new player. An ex-Rugby League winger named Lesley Vainikolo.

England are by no means alone in employing the service of foreign players in their national team, my own Scottish team have done it for years, but I do think that this is a very sad and unnecessary development in the game, especially when a team as historically strong as England who have such a huge pool of players to choose from resort to this tactic.

I preferred the days when national teams were made up of nationals, not the best foreigners available.

Derek

As this thread has continued, we may as well have a splash of facts,

Lesley Vainikolo was born in Tonga and moved to New Zealand as a young child.
He first played Rugby Union.
He played representitive games at Rugby League for New Zealand.
He moved to England 6 years ago and has applied for a British Passport, which is his right through the naturalisation procedures.

It's a complicated subject, and subject to personal opinions. But at least pass judgement in the knowledge of the facts.

I never like to spoil a good debate by introducing the truth.

However, now that you have enlightened us with your pearls of wisdom, my judgement remains the same. National teams should be made up from people who belong to that nation, not people who have decided to change their nationality out of convenience, especially when they have previously represented any other nation as their own.

As I said at the beginning, England are not alone in this and my own nation is equally, if not more, at fault here. I just think it's wrong.

Derek

Jonah Lumu wasn't from New Zealand, half their teams for the last 30 years have picked the cream of the nearby Islands. Ryan Giggs played schoolboy internationals for England. D'Oliveria, Tony Greig, Robin Smith, Graeme Hick, Alan Lamb, Kevin Pieterson are all South Africans who played for England. Lennox Lewis boxed for Canada, although he was Jamacian, before he became English.

In fact Cricket is that confused, glance at this site.

Sport is riddled with such difficulties. Thats why the Bernard Manning reference came up. He famously pinched the Duke of Wellingtons phrase, and took away any doubt of it being clearly racist, by saying that if a Dog is born in a stable, it doesn't make it a horse.

Alan

Conky wrote:Jonah Lumu wasn't from New Zealand, half their teams for the last 30 years have picked the cream of the nearby Islands. Ryan Giggs played schoolboy internationals for England. D'Oliveria, Tony Greig, Robin Smith, Graeme Hick, Alan Lamb, Kevin Pieterson are all South Africans who played for England. Lennox Lewis boxed for Canada, although he was Jamacian, before he became English.

You seem to be making my point for me.

Conky wrote:I didn't know our Forum had its own Bernard Manning!

Conky wrote:Sport is riddled with such difficulties. Thats why the Bernard Manning reference came up. He famously pinched the Duke of Wellingtons phrase, and took away any doubt of it being clearly racist, by saying that if a Dog is born in a stable, it doesn't make it a horse.

1. Thanks for the inference that I am a racist.

2. To extend the use the Duke's phrase so that it actually has some relevance to the point of this discussion, if a Dog was born in a different stable it should represent that stable in the Grand National

Just to be clear and set the record straight on 1 above, I have no problem whatsoever with immigration, naturalisation and ethnic diversity. The fact that most of the nations in the world now have athletes representing them in all sports who are from different ethnic backgrounds does not trouble me in the slightest and, if fact, I believe the world is a better place for it. What I am objecting to is the contrived manner with which some athletes and many national sporting bodies use the naturalisation process as a way of selecting better players than they have access to within their own nation. For example, there are many New Zealanders and South Africans who have come to Europe and adopted a nation for no other reason than to find a way of playing international rugby. The reason they come is that they are not good enough to play for their home nation but are better than what we have here. I am quite sure they still consider themselves to be New Zealanders and South Africans, especially after their playing days are over. This is completely different to the situation where a young boys family up sticks and emigrate to another land with the intention of making it their new home and he subsequently gets selected to represent the country in which he emigrated to. This is what the naturalisation process is there for, to enable familys and individuals to become part of the society they have chosen to live in. It is not there for the purpose of team selection

Derek

Conky wrote:Lennox Lewis boxed for Canada, although he was Jamacian, before he became English.

Actually, I think you'll find that his passport says he's British.

Scottish, English, Northern Irish and Welsh are not internationally recognised nationalities apart from in some sports. An anomoly which, if I were French, American, Brazilian or Greek, I would find intensely annoying and unfair. It is one of the reasons why the rest of the world don't like us. That, and the fact we once raped half the globe.

Derek

Derek,

I dont think your racist, I'm sure your not. But I would also advise you not to go on any Racial Awareness Training, that they give to the Public Sectors. (It has actually been rebranded as Diversity Training). They will have you as a clearcut Racist. Then again, so, according to that view, is anyone who uses phrases like Nitty Gritty, Blackboard, Blackmail, etc,etc. And God help you when you order coffee!

But I do disagree with your asumption of what makes someone a Citizen of a Country. If a Sportsman is an economic migrant, but fits into whatever current criteria is in place, he's just the same as so many others in all walks of life. When the initial subject of this thread, has settled down in this Country for 6 years, has applied for a passport and lives here with his family. He's English.

We have to be tolerant as a Nation. How else could we put up with the bleating of the Celts?

Alan

Conky wrote: But I do disagree with your asumption of what makes someone a Citizen of a Country. If a Sportsman is an economic migrant, but fits into whatever current criteria is in place, he's just the same as so many others in all walks of life. When the initial subject of this thread, has settled down in this Country for 6 years, has applied for a passport and lives here with his family. He's English.

Until he stops playing rugby and moves somewhere else because his "English" nationality is no longer necessary.

Not exactly what playing for your national team is all about.

Have I ever mentioned my theory on Global Warming? Perhaps you would like that one better?

Derek

Conky wrote: I dont think your racist, I'm sure your not. But I would also advise you not to go on any Racial Awareness Training

Too late

I had to go when the recent Age Discrimenation stuff came out. The highlight of my day was banging the table and announcing to the class of 20 plus a very posh (but racist) HR lady that

"I'm not having this!! I reserve the right to not like someone regardless of what colour they are, how old or young they are and how many working limbs they have"

She wasn't pleased, especially with my view that I have the right to not employ someone if I don't like them. Apparently the interviewer's pesonal judgement on a potential employees character isn't allowed any more.

It was a very entertaining day, even though we never got onto the subject of Global Warming or "What do you mean the earth is round?"

Derek

Here is a summary of today's 6 Nations results....
























:

Derek

All went a bit quiet near the end?

That was the scots in equal last, wasn't it?

Conky wrote:All went a bit quiet near the end?

That was the scots in equal last, wasn't it?

With whom, I wonder?

Well done Wales. Especially as it's (just gone) the Welsh Saint's day (don't argue with this)

Conky wrote:All went a bit quiet near the end?

That was the scots in equal last, wasn't it?

Yip. Equal last it was. Expected and only worthy of ridicule aimed at an incompetent coach and managment team.

Ingerlund done the usual at times like this. Played crap in all games but managed to hail themselves as heros against inefectual opposition in France and Ireland. I will recall with amusement forever the statement by the commentator at the end of the France v England match when he declared with heart beating out of his chest "France were awfull, England palyed magnificantly, and beat France by two tries to one"

To my mind this was one of the most disappointing 6 Nations in living memory. Wales did good but even they were lacking in the killer moves required to be recognised as top flight rugger. Any southern hemisphere team would tear their way through Europe right now. There is something fundamentaly wrong.

Derek