ThePortForum.com

Posted: **17:28 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Combining all of the ideas - Julian's, Derek's, and Phil's - the piston should have a hole in it through which a corkscrew could be inserted into the cork, thus allowing one to have the cork stabilized by a corkscrew while using the device to push. That would also make it easier to thread the corkscrew since it would be done before loosening the cork.

In reality the pusher piston only needs to be a ring, not a full piston, because as Julian pointed out earlier the desire is to create pressure around the outside edge of the piston, not in the center.

It now strikes me that a small stack of properly-sized washers would suffice for this purpose.

Posted: **17:32 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

I happen to know a CNC machinist, and if we're headed down that road I'm sure he would be happy to give us an estimate of both cost and practicality. He does not do projects himself (seeing as the machines themselves are extremely expensive), but rather is a CNC machinist for a small tool-making company here in the Seattle area.

Posted: **17:40 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

PhilW wrote: ↑16:59 Mon 03 Jan 2022Per current diagram, width of tool is same as piston dia at 16mm - all good, and means tool would also fit inserted in bottle lengthways, so could be used per Alex for full push-in; if one end were widened slightly instead of just rounded off at same width, that would also stop tool being able to fall into bottle if used for this purpose also.

Ignoring protrusion of pistons!

The cross section through the 4mm piston has a diagonal of √(16² + (4+2)²) = 2√73 ≈ 17.1mm. Would fit most bottles. But the long piston at the other end has a diagonal of √(16² + (8+2)²) = 2√89 ≈ 18.868mm, which would be too tight for an accidental fall. So, by luck, that might happen to be what’s wanted.

Posted: **17:42 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

akzy wrote: ↑16:56 Mon 03 Jan 2022Thought I'd chime in here as I often get lots of things like this made.

In case potential suppliers should read this forum, let’s not quote prices here.

Are you willing to accept the title of Head of Production?

Posted: **18:08 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑17:42 Mon 03 Jan 2022 In case potential suppliers should read this forum, let’s not quote prices here.

Updated.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑17:42 Mon 03 Jan 2022 Are you willing to accept the title of Head of Production?

Do I get a sash?

Posted: **18:19 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

From Zak’s CAD model, which I hope was from my today-15:25 specification, he shows:

Posted: **18:21 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Prices greatly improve with volume. Worthwhile if only five of us; excellent if twenty-five. Pls PM or WhatsApp me or Zak for prices; and then post here if you’re in.

Posted: **18:34 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:25 Sun 02 Jan 2022
DRT wrote: ↑19:59 Sun 02 Jan 2022Have you measured hundreds of bottles across many decades to identify 15mm as the optimum diameter of the pusher or is it a guess?
Almost hundreds. Let me count. OK. Nearer, err, two. Please measure some bottles.

Please measure some bottles.

Currently using 16mm diameter for pistons. I have open available bottles in range 18mm–20mm.

Posted: **18:48 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

I have open bottles ranging from 16mm (Vesuvio 1991) to 18mm (Kopke 1957 Colheita). Ferreira 1978 and Malvedos 2019 both at 17mm.

Posted: **18:48 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:21 Mon 03 Jan 2022 Prices greatly improve with volume. Worthwhile if only five of us; excellent if twenty-five. Pls PM or WhatsApp me or Zak for prices; and then post here if you’re in.

I’m in.

Posted: **18:58 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:21 Mon 03 Jan 2022 Prices greatly improve with volume. Worthwhile if only five of us; excellent if twenty-five. Pls PM or WhatsApp me or Zak for prices; and then post here if you’re in.

Permission to ask around here in Seattle and see if anyone else (read: Sammamish Port Club) is interested?

I'm likely in regardless, but the club might be interested in anywhere from 0 to 9 more.

Posted: **19:00 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Should one of the keyring/hanging holes be replaced with a bottle-opener hole?

Posted: **19:00 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Glenn E. wrote: ↑18:48 Mon 03 Jan 2022I have open bottles ranging from 16mm (Vesuvio 1991)

Really only 16mm? Not a mite more? So a 16mm piston would be too big?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑18:58 Mon 03 Jan 2022Permission to ask around here in Seattle and see if anyone else (read: Sammamish Port Club) is interested?

Of course. And they’re welcome to send a link to this thread.

Posted: **19:01 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑18:21 Mon 03 Jan 2022 Prices greatly improve with volume. Worthwhile if only five of us; excellent if twenty-five. Pls PM or WhatsApp me or Zak for prices; and then post here if you’re in.

I'd take a few - as would give some away as gifts to wine loving friends - plus would attempt punting to 67 Pall Mall for staff and interested members.

Posted: **19:05 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:00 Mon 03 Jan 2022
Glenn E. wrote: ↑18:48 Mon 03 Jan 2022I have open bottles ranging from 16mm (Vesuvio 1991)
Really only 16mm? Not a mite more? So a 16mm piston would be too big?

That seems to be the case. I would not swear that my measurement is precise, but I was surprised at the small diameter and so tried several measurements. I do think that a 16mm piston would be too big for that particular bottle.

I can re-measure with a different ruler and see if that gives different results. This one was plastic and see-through, with the markings in the center rather than along an edge, so it was a little difficult to center correctly across the opening. I'll try a normal tape measure and see what it says.

Posted: **19:13 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Preferences between 15mm and 15½mm? I prefer the (slightly) larger. (Answered in next post.)

Posted: **19:14 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:00 Mon 03 Jan 2022
Glenn E. wrote: ↑18:48 Mon 03 Jan 2022I have open bottles ranging from 16mm (Vesuvio 1991)
Really only 16mm? Not a mite more? So a 16mm piston would be too big?

Re-measured using a tape measure. All measurements 1mm greater: V91 is 17mm, Fr78 and GM19 are 18mm, and K57 is 19mm.

I suspect that having to look through the plastic of the ruler to get a reading threw me off.

Also convenient - the Kopke, Vesuvio, and Ferreira bottles have slight markings opposite one another across the mouth of the bottle, making it very easy to find the center of the opening to measure. I hadn't noticed those when measuring using the ruler, so may not have been exactly in the middle.

Posted: **19:24 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

I’ll keep a list of potential purchasers in the first post.

Posted: **19:28 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:00 Mon 03 Jan 2022 Should one of the keyring/hanging holes be replaced with a bottle-opener hole?

Yes.

Posted: **19:31 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑17:40 Mon 03 Jan 2022
PhilW wrote: ↑16:59 Mon 03 Jan 2022Per current diagram, width of tool is same as piston dia at 16mm - all good, and means tool would also fit inserted in bottle lengthways, so could be used per Alex for full push-in; if one end were widened slightly instead of just rounded off at same width, that would also stop tool being able to fall into bottle if used for this purpose also.
Ignoring protrusion of pistons!

The cross section through the 4mm piston has a diagonal of √(16² + (4+2)²) = 2√73 ≈ 17.1mm. Would fit most bottles. But the long piston at the other end has a diagonal of √(16² + (8+2)²) = 2√89 ≈ 18.868mm, which would be too tight for an accidental fall. So, by luck, that might happen to be what’s wanted.

If you put the pistons back into the original order of 2mm >> 4mm >> 8mm the plunger would work on more bottles.

Posted: **19:34 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Having given this a little more thought I think I would want to be able to use this device with one hand so that the other hand can be grasping the bottle to avoid it ending up on the counter top or floor if the cork gave way suddenly and unevenly.

Posted: **20:06 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

I'm in. Also prefer 2/4/8 order, but only because I think I'd use 4 most (2 seems too small to me).

Possible bottle opener at one end would also act as the fall-in preventer for end-on use if the largest piston sas not already sufficient to do this. Ambivalent.

Posted: **20:08 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

At least one for me please and I will be happy to man the sales stand at a future b.f.t.

Posted: **20:36 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Late to this discussion, the most important design factor in my mind is the piston width. As others have already noted, pressure at the cork edge is paramount to prevent a ripped/hollowed cork. Given this, should there be some way to have varied piston widths?

How about four pistons, 14-17mm, each 20mm long, but with holes drilled through at 2, 4, 8mm. Supply with a round bar that slots into the drilled hole, to stop the piston in the bottle neck at the desired depth.

Said round bar could be stored vertically in one of the pistons.

Posted: **21:16 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

{4, 2, 8}: JDAW
{2, 4, 8}: DRT, PW

Pls vote.

Posted: **21:17 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

DRT wrote: ↑19:34 Mon 03 Jan 2022Having given this a little more thought I think I would want to be able to use this device with one hand so that the other hand can be grasping the bottle to avoid it ending up on the counter top or floor if the cork gave way suddenly and unevenly.

I haven’t understood what consequence came of the one-handedness.

Posted: **21:23 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

flash_uk wrote: ↑20:36 Mon 03 Jan 2022Late to this discussion, the most important design factor in my mind is the piston width. As others have already noted, pressure at the cork edge is paramount to prevent a ripped/hollowed cork. Given this, should there be some way to have varied piston widths?

How about four pistons, 14-17mm, each 20mm long, but with holes drilled through at 2, 4, 8mm. Supply with a round bar that slots into the drilled hole, to stop the piston in the bottle neck at the desired depth.

Said round bar could be stored vertically in one of the pistons.

More complicated to make, and a piece to be lost.

Bottles seem to have a necks of at least 17mm, so 16mm will fit all. If your bottle is very wide, the pusher can be rotated to round to apply pressure at the edges.

Posted: **21:25 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

DRT wrote: ↑19:28 Mon 03 Jan 2022
jdaw1 wrote: ↑19:00 Mon 03 Jan 2022Should one of the keyring/hanging holes be replaced with a bottle-opener hole?
Yes.

Comparing with bottle openers chez Wiseman, they all seem to have an aperture wider than 16mm. So perhaps the suggestion, despite enthusiasm, is withdrawn.

Posted: **22:07 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:16 Mon 03 Jan 2022
{4, 2, 8}: JDAW

{2, 4, 8}: DRT, PW
Pls vote.

I agree with Phil and Derek that I would probably most often use the 4mm piston, so would prefer for it to be in the center.

I feel that many stuck corks might easily compress sufficiently to absorb the 2mm depth.

Posted: **22:20 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

PhilW wrote: ↑10:00 Mon 03 Jan 2022 I (almost) never push the cork all the way in since the top of the cork can often be grubby and I would be concerned about potentially contaminating the wine, and would use tongs if possible instead in that scenario.

The grubbiness of the top of a cork is an issue. I seem to be able to manage it by diligently cleaning with cloth or green scratchy or even scraping the top carefully with a knife before pushing the cork in.

Posted: **22:58 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

As of 22:55 Mon 03 Jan 2022. Volume ≈ 5970 mm³. Aluminium density ≈ 2710 kg m⁻³ ⟹︎ weight ≈ 16.2 g.

Posted: **23:01 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

Some non-TPFers are being asked for an opinion, so ordering likely won’t happen this week. Perhaps next.

Posted: **23:50 Mon 03 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑21:17 Mon 03 Jan 2022
DRT wrote: ↑19:34 Mon 03 Jan 2022Having given this a little more thought I think I would want to be able to use this device with one hand so that the other hand can be grasping the bottle to avoid it ending up on the counter top or floor if the cork gave way suddenly and unevenly.
I haven’t understood what consequence came of the one-handedness.

this relates to your suggestion of placing the 2mm piston in the middle but would apply regardless of that. Your description made me think of an unsupported bottle standing on a worktop or table with a user grasping the pusher-in-thing with two hands bearing down on the cork. A minor slip would lead to disaster. I want a hand on the bottle.

Posted: **08:54 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

DRT wrote: ↑23:50 Mon 03 Jan 2022this relates to your suggestion of placing the 2mm piston in the middle but would apply regardless of that. Your description made me think of an unsupported bottle standing on a worktop or table with a user grasping the pusher-in-thing with two hands bearing down on the cork. A minor slip would lead to disaster. I want a hand on the bottle.

Hence my confusion. I had envisaged always always this device being one-handed, so that the other hand could firmly grasp the absence of disaster. Maybe I should have said that explicitly.

Still, marginally easiest to use with the middle piston.

Posted: **08:55 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

It occurred to me yesterday that if you wanted to produce a prototype of this with minimal tools, some thumb screws with a 16mm flat head might do the trick. They don’t make one with a 2mm thick head but do make them with 3.5mm ones and 9.5mm ones which is pretty close to the sizes being discussed here. You could probably produce something quite close to the finished product by taking a piece of 2mm flat steel bar; drilling & tapping a couple of holes in it; screwing these in; and then cutting the thread flush with the back of the plate.

https://www.berger-tools.co.uk/Hand_Kno ... ess_Steel/

https://www.berger-tools.co.uk/Hand_Kno ... ess_Steel/

DRT wrote: ↑23:50 Mon 03 Jan 2022this relates to your suggestion of placing the 2mm piston in the middle but would apply regardless of that. Your description made me think of an unsupported bottle standing on a worktop or table with a user grasping the pusher-in-thing with two hands bearing down on the cork. A minor slip would lead to disaster. I want a hand on the bottle.

I appreciate it might sound a bit less glamorous than this tool but I wonder if a M16 bolt would do the trick for one-handed operation since you could push straight down whilst holding the bottle in the other hand. A nut would allow you to set the maximum depth, too.

Posted: **09:52 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

With apologies for my poor drawing skills, two images to try and help show (a) the minor mod I was suggesting, and (b) how it could be easily extended into addition of bottle opener without additional complexity if wanted.

(a)

: pusher1.jpg (40.79 KiB) Viewed 11301 times

The intention by widening the end slightly is to allow the device to be used horizontally to push with the pistons per JDAW original concept, but also to allow use vertically (perhaps after freeing the cork) to push the cork all the way in to the bottle. The widened end would prevent the tool falling in, as well as being easier to push on, with no additional parts/difficulty to manufacture.

(b)

: pusher2-bc.jpg (40.58 KiB) Viewed 11301 times

This was just a thought on how it could be extended to include bottle-opener capability meeting both needs (prevention of drop-in and bottle opener). If not needing the drop-in prevention, then the alternative (without width increase) would be a notch in the side of the tool (though I'm less keen as this might reduce the tool strength).

FWIW, not sure if (b) is worth it, but I like (a), especially if the larger piston size were not needed, and so the pistons were not sufficient to prevent drop in when used as a vertical pusher. Also possibly just for handling ease.

Posted: **10:13 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

JacobH wrote: ↑08:55 Tue 04 Jan 2022 It occurred to me yesterday that if you wanted to produce a prototype of this with minimal tools, some thumb screws

Is it only me who immediately pictured some sort of medieval torture device being used in Julian's new cellar?

Posted: **10:14 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

PhilW wrote: ↑09:52 Tue 04 Jan 2022 With apologies for my poor drawing skills, two images to try and help show (a) the minor mod I was suggesting, and (b) how it could be easily extended into addition of bottle opener without additional complexity if wanted.

(a)
pusher1.jpg

The intention by widening the end slightly is to allow the device to be used horizontally to push with the pistons per JDAW original concept, but also to allow use vertically (perhaps after freeing the cork) to push the cork all the way in to the bottle. The widened end would prevent the tool falling in, as well as being easier to push on, with no additional parts/difficulty to manufacture.

(b)
pusher2-bc.jpg

This was just a thought on how it could be extended to include bottle-opener capability meeting both needs (prevention of drop-in and bottle opener). If not needing the drop-in prevention, then the alternative (without width increase) would be a notch in the side of the tool (though I'm less keen as this might reduce the tool strength).

FWIW, not sure if (b) is worth it, but I like (a), especially if the larger piston size were not needed, and so the pistons were not sufficient to prevent drop in when used as a vertical pusher. Also possibly just for handling ease.

Whilst the bottle-opener option seemed useful when suggested I do not think it is worthy of adding bulk or cost to the device.

Posted: **11:42 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

PhilW wrote: ↑09:52 Tue 04 Jan 2022 With apologies for my poor drawing skills, two images to try and help show (a) the minor mod I was suggesting, and (b) how it could be easily extended into addition of bottle opener without additional complexity if wanted.

(a)

I did consider this myself. I was concerned about the effective radius being larger
End effective radius = sqrt(65) ~8.06mm
2mm plunger effective radius = sqrt(68) ~8.25 mm
4mm plunger effective radius = sqrt(80) ~8.94 mm (too large)
8mm plunger effective radius = sqrt(128) ~11.31mm (way too large)

A simple solution is to have the plungers tablet shaped not circular. This would work well for everything upto 8 mm.

Posted: **11:45 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

JacobH wrote: ↑08:55 Tue 04 Jan 2022 It occurred to me yesterday that if you wanted to produce a prototype of this with minimal tools, some thumb screws with a 16mm flat head might do the trick. They don’t make one with a 2mm thick head but do make them with 3.5mm ones and 9.5mm ones which is pretty close to the sizes being discussed here. You could probably produce something quite close to the finished product by taking a piece of 2mm flat steel bar; drilling & tapping a couple of holes in it; screwing these in; and then cutting the thread flush with the back of the plate.

https://www.berger-tools.co.uk/Hand_Kno ... ess_Steel/

https://www.berger-tools.co.uk/Hand_Kno ... ess_Steel/

DRT wrote: ↑23:50 Mon 03 Jan 2022this relates to your suggestion of placing the 2mm piston in the middle but would apply regardless of that. Your description made me think of an unsupported bottle standing on a worktop or table with a user grasping the pusher-in-thing with two hands bearing down on the cork. A minor slip would lead to disaster. I want a hand on the bottle.
I appreciate it might sound a bit less glamorous than this tool but I wonder if a M16 bolt would do the trick for one-handed operation since you could push straight down whilst holding the bottle in the other hand. A nut would allow you to set the maximum depth, too.

The very sensible approach which sane people should actually do.

Posted: **13:25 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

akzy wrote: ↑11:45 Tue 04 Jan 2022
JacobH wrote: ↑08:55 Tue 04 Jan 2022 I appreciate it might sound a bit less glamorous than this tool but I wonder if a M16 bolt would do the trick for one-handed operation since you could push straight down whilst holding the bottle in the other hand. A nut would allow you to set the maximum depth, too.
The very sensible approach which sane people should actually do.

Something like this:

: Picture2.jpg (64.89 KiB) Viewed 11272 times

Adjust the nut (3rd along from left) to give the desired piston depth. Could even make the adjusting nut a wing nut for easier operation.

Posted: **13:54 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

We've been assuming that the benefit of using a piston is for full cork press; do we know this to be true? We know that when a cork is stuck to the glass we can rip the core out, so presumably could push the core through also (if using too small a "piston") but how big does it need to be?

Julian's answer of "as big as possible" is probably the safest, and we certainly would not want to use a small-diameter shape; but considering in regard to Zak's comment on ovals, it made me wonder how small a 16mm x Ymm oval might work; or indeed whether a 16mm x 2mm rectangle might work, i.e. a flat section of 2mm bar. If such were sufficient, we could then have all sorts of possible simple flat-metal solutions which would be extremely cheap to make...
(once again, please excuse my [lack of] drawing skills)

: pusher3-flat.jpg (36.06 KiB) Viewed 11264 times

: pusher4-flat.jpg (36.69 KiB) Viewed 11264 times

Posted: **19:38 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

By Jove!, this is much easier than I had reckoned, and somewhat easier than recent posts. It would suffice to have a 100mm-long 16mm bolt with a 24mm-across matching nut.

Is it really that easy? Am I missing anything?

Except that the pressure will be a thread-width away from the edge.

Posted: **20:27 Tue 04 Jan 2022**

jdaw1 wrote:Is it really that easy? Am I missing anything?

Simple, functional and adjustable. Could use a pair of nuts (so they essentially lock against each other to stop the bottom one turning during use), and a much shorter bolt. Not as pleasing to the eye, but much cheaper (though I did wonder whether a 3D printed plastic version of the tool might be almost as cheap).

Posted: **07:40 Sat 26 Mar 2022**

I am now able to report my first (and successful) use of The Wiseman.

Just opened a half of Vargellas 1996. Every previous opening of these has been a disaster.

Pushed the cork down approximately 5mm and then carefully removed with The Durand.

Almost tempted to open another just for the pleasure of defeating the cork.

Posted: **13:44 Sat 26 Mar 2022**

nac wrote: ↑07:40 Sat 26 Mar 2022Almost tempted to open another just for the pleasure of defeating the cork.

There is another reason, a more important reason, why another will be needed.

nac wrote: ↑07:40 Sat 26 Mar 2022a half of

Posted: **20:41 Sat 26 Mar 2022**

I find that if I heat the neck of the bottle briefly (30 seconds or so) in steam it seems to melt whatever adhesive sticks that cork to the glass and allows the cork to be extracted smoothly and easily.

Posted: **19:11 Mon 28 Mar 2022**

How did I miss this thread? Fabulous idea (push in a little before using a screw pull) -- I keep nearly all of my empties, and will have to do some measuring/testing. One concern is that a soft cork will compress significantly, and long before the stuck part releases. It may also be difficult to reduce pressure just as a stuck cork becomes freed, i.e. push->compress, push more -> compress more, push even more -> release! Plop. cork in the bottle.

Posted: **20:15 Mon 28 Mar 2022**

SushiNorth wrote: ↑19:11 Mon 28 Mar 2022i.e. push->compress, push more -> compress more, push even more -> release! Plop. cork in the bottle.

This risk is not denied. Surely the inventor of the Port garrotte can suggest better.

Posted: **03:40 Tue 29 Mar 2022**

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:15 Mon 28 Mar 2022
SushiNorth wrote: ↑19:11 Mon 28 Mar 2022i.e. push->compress, push more -> compress more, push even more -> release! Plop. cork in the bottle.
This risk is not denied. Surely the inventor of the Port garrotte can suggest better.

Oh you know I am thinking about it

ThePortForum.com

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