Port and literature

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 22:23 Mon 11 Jan 2016

What a tantalising ending to tonight's episode!! Has anyone guessed the twist yet?

Post by **DRT** » 22:52 Mon 11 Jan 2016

I knew it all along - it was the kitchen maid with a poisoned filter in the pantry!

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 22:54 Mon 11 Jan 2016

Nice idea. But is it right?

Post by **DRT** » 22:58 Mon 11 Jan 2016

Yes. I bought the book yesterday.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 23:00 Mon 11 Jan 2016

DRT wrote:Yes. I bought the book yesterday.

Then someone's been interfering with your maid.

Post by **PhilW** » 23:11 Mon 11 Jan 2016

I did wonder about the funnel or cheesecloth, as near the start, the niece was present near the cradle but not the bottle, and the nicotine could have been soaked onto with if they were on that tray; but that would not explain the need to switch bottles later, so can't be correct.

Either, the was opened, poison added, and re-corked by the niece with huge biceps and a recorking machine in the corner of the cellar, or the butler did it. Or both. The butler IS the niece, with a false moustache?

Post by **DRT** » 23:13 Mon 11 Jan 2016

djewesbury wrote:
DRT wrote:Yes. I bought the book yesterday.
Then someone's been interfering with your maid.

That was never proven and you know it. Move along...

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 23:15 Mon 11 Jan 2016

And it wasn't nicotine.

Post by **DRT** » 23:25 Mon 11 Jan 2016

LGTrotter wrote:And it wasn't nicotine.

{Eastenders} Dum, dum, da-da-da, dum!

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 23:29 Mon 11 Jan 2016

And he isn't dead!

Post by **PhilW** » 23:30 Mon 11 Jan 2016

He's just... Pining for the fjords?

Post by **DRT** » 23:43 Mon 11 Jan 2016

LGTrotter wrote:And he isn't dead!

That explains it. I knew the prostate cancer theory couldn't be true

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 14:19 Tue 12 Jan 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:It surprised me that a butler of Craven's experience would not know how many dozens of Ck08 remained in the bin. Perhaps that was the only way to introduce the cellar book as a suspect?
I always know exactly how many Dow 1908s are in my cellar.

I don't. Every time someone asks me, I have to get my butler to look it up in my cellar book.

Things that happened in 1908:

Henry Ford started selling the Ford Model T - which sold for $850, if you could get hold of one
Bulgaria declared itself independent from the Ottoman Empire; Bosnia-Herzegovinia was annexed by the Austro-Hungarian Empire
Representatives of the citizens of Crete voted to become part of Greece and to give up independence
The Belgian Parliament takes ownership and control of the Congo Free State from the King and criticises his brutal policies
A meteorite crashed into the plains of Siberia, creating the Tunguska crater and flattening trees for miles around
The first large oil deposit in the Middle East is discovered in Persia, starting the Middle East oil boom
SOS came into force as the international distress signal
The FBI was founded (presumably to prevent future forging of high value wine and port)
The Christian Science Monitor was first published
Robert Baden Powell published Scouting for Boys
Jack Johnson becomes the first black heavyweight boxing champion

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 17:01 Tue 12 Jan 2016

Wow! I can't wait to post tonight's episode (get back!) now we that know so much about 1908!

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 22:11 Tue 12 Jan 2016

Well well. Who could have expected that we'd arrive here so soon - only a page and a half remains and it makes no sense to leave half the final exposition until tomorrow so here you are, the end of the road and a dose and a half of goodness. Enjoy it. It's been fun. Soyez soin. A bientôt.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 23:30 Tue 12 Jan 2016

The butler did it? Dotty Sayers does it again, I was fooled by the assumption that poison was traditionally a female murder weapon. Most enjoyable Daniel. And congratulations on finding a story with port at it's heart.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 23:33 Tue 12 Jan 2016

My pleasure, Owen. It was great fun. And rather thrilling that you liked it too, hmm?

Post by **DRT** » 23:56 Tue 12 Jan 2016

Most excellent. Thank you, Daniel.

Glenn E. · Post by **Glenn E.** » 04:37 Wed 13 Jan 2016

Great fun! Thanks, Daniel!

Post by **PhilW** » 09:07 Wed 13 Jan 2016

So the butler did it after all; I guess we should have known.
Great job in finding such a port-focussed story, and enjoyed your presentation of it.
Thank you, it was fun.

Post by **jdaw1** » 09:24 Wed 13 Jan 2016

PhilW wrote:So the butler did it after all; I guess we should have known.
Great job in finding such a port-focussed story, and enjoyed your presentation of it.
Thank you, it was fun.

Seconded.

Doggett · Post by **Doggett** » 09:34 Wed 13 Jan 2016

Great entertainment Daniel...thank you. All that is needed now is a nice glass of Dow 1908 to mark the end of this wonderful serial.

For those interested in other Maxims from 'The Salesman's Handbook' that Egg seems to live by, I found the below collection...

-To serve the public is the aim of every salesman worth the name
-It's useless to bluster and say "No, no", when it's perfectly clear that the facts are so
-Don't let the smallest chance slip by; you never know until you try
-If you're a salesman worth the name at all, you can sell razors to a billiard ball
-The hardest problem's easy of solution when each one makes his little contribution
-Whether you're wrong or whether you're right, it's always better to be polite
-Ready to learn means ready to earn
-The haberdasher gets the golfer's trade by talking, not of buttons, but of Braid
-Account with rigid honesty for £ and s and even d
-The goodwill of the maid is nine-tenths of the trade
-Don't trust to luck but be exact, and certify the smallest fact
-The salesman with the open eye sees commissions mount up high
-Don't wait for unpleasant disclosures to burst. If the truth must be told, see you tell it first
-The salesman who will use his brains will spare himself a world of pains
-Well-kept hands that please the sight, seize the trade and hold it tight, but bitten nails and grubby claws well may give the buyer pause
-Discretion plays a major part in making up the salesman's art
-The salesman's job is to get the trade - don't leave the house till the deal is made (Monty's motto)
-Attend to details and you'll make your sale - a little weight will often turn the scale
-Never miss a chance of learning for that word spells "£" plus "earning"
-When it's a question of stamps to lick, the office-boy knows most of the trick
-If accidents happen and you are to blame, takes steps to avoid repetition of same

Glenn E. · Post by **Glenn E.** » 15:51 Wed 13 Jan 2016

I must confess that I don't follow the last paragraph. How does addressing Mr. Egg as "sir" after previously addressing him as "young fellow" immediately identify Craven as the culprit?

Post by **DRT** » 17:44 Wed 13 Jan 2016

A butler of good standing would be very deferential to those he thought of as his superiors but quite dismissive and authoritarian over those beneath him. A salesman visiting the master's house would fall into the latter category, as evidenced by the greeting on the previous occasion.

On this particular day Craven would be feeling guilty and perhaps behaving out of character, thus addressing the salesman in an unusual manner.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 01:10 Thu 14 Jan 2016

Now this is over, can we talk about port again? It's just that Alex has sent me a spreadsheet that's given me a nosebleed and I need to talk about it.

Glenn E. · Post by **Glenn E.** » 05:17 Thu 14 Jan 2016

Ah, that explains it. Thanks!

(I don't think a spreadsheet counts as literature.)

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 13:59 Thu 14 Jan 2016

Presentation and performance is everything. Hard to do with a spreadsheet; I spent all yesterday filling a big one in the hope that the number in the bottom right would be the number we started with (it wasn't, but that was sort of the point). Get away with your spreadsheets.

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 20:46 Thu 14 Jan 2016

djewesbury wrote:Presentation and performance is everything. Hard to do with a spreadsheet; I spent all yesterday filling a big one in the hope that the number in the bottom right would be the number we started with (it wasn't, but that was sort of the point). Get away with your spreadsheets.

Don't diss my spreadsheet. It could change Owen's life! (Not necessarily for the better, I admit.)

Post by **PhilW** » 21:14 Thu 14 Jan 2016

Did it tell you need to buy another 1000+ bottles of port?

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 09:20 Tue 19 Apr 2016

Waugh's Parthenon.

"It is not 'snow-white' as I have seen it described by quite responsible observers, but a singularly beautiful tone in very pale pinkish brown; the nearest parallel to it of Nature that I can think of is that of the milder parts of a Stilton cheese into which port has been poured."

From Waugh's book 'Labels'.

TLW · Post by **TLW** » 20:47 Thu 05 May 2016

In the Sherlock Holmes story, "The Gloria Scott", Sherlock Holmes says, "One evening, shortly after my arrival, we were sitting over a glass of port after dinner, when young Trevor began to talk about those habits of observation and inference which I had already formed into a system..."

Post by **jdaw1** » 22:58 Thu 05 May 2016

LGTrotter, on Wednesday 17th July 2013, wrote:I have to mention Dorothy L Sayers. At various times Lord Peter Wimsey is drinking port, usually Cockburn. There is one ('Clouds of Witness'?) where Murbles the solicitor is left a case of the Cockburn 1847 by a grateful client in their will. Drinking the wine in the 1920s they pronounce it dead; 'a ghost merely', however Andre Simon reports it alive and well in 'Vintagewise' in the 1930s. I have a feeling that Ms Sayers and her ficticious paramour Lord Peter liked their port younger and fruitier than I do.

Re-reading early posts of this thread — as, perhaps, a substitute for the education to which I paid too little attention — this was noticed. ¿Is its author sure of the date of Vintagewise? My edition is 1951.

Post by **DRT** » 06:48 Fri 06 May 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
LGTrotter, on Wednesday 17th July 2013, wrote:I have to mention Dorothy L Sayers. At various times Lord Peter Wimsey is drinking port, usually Cockburn. There is one ('Clouds of Witness'?) where Murbles the solicitor is left a case of the Cockburn 1847 by a grateful client in their will. Drinking the wine in the 1920s they pronounce it dead; 'a ghost merely', however Andre Simon reports it alive and well in 'Vintagewise' in the 1930s. I have a feeling that Ms Sayers and her ficticious paramour Lord Peter liked their port younger and fruitier than I do.
Re-reading early posts of this thread — as, perhaps, a substitute for the education to which I paid too little attention — this was noticed. ¿Is its author sure of the date of Vintagewise? My edition is 1951.

I haven't checked my copy, but my memory tells me that Vintagewise is an account of ALS's journey through the world of wine which recounts various events throughout his career. My reading of the above quote is that the book references Ck1847 as being alive when he tasted it in the 1930s rather than it being a reference to the publishing date. I could be wrong.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 06:53 Fri 06 May 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
LGTrotter, on Wednesday 17th July 2013, wrote:Re-reading early posts of this thread — as, perhaps, a substitute for the education to which I paid too little attention — this was noticed. ¿Is its author sure of the date of Vintagewise? My edition is 1951.

I am away from my book collection at present and I am unable to check. From memory I think the 1930s date comes from the tasting date rather than the book publication date.

EDIT; I see Derek has forestalled me, his interpretation being the same as mine.

Post by **jdaw1** » 07:58 Fri 06 May 2016

LGTrotter wrote:From memory I think the 1930s date comes from the tasting date rather than the book publication date.

Happiness — thank you.

Post by **jdaw1** » 22:45 Sat 07 May 2016

Wayward Tendrils of the Vine (1947), Ian Maxwell Campbell, page 61: “I remember another evening at ‘The Oaks’, again after a decanter of the ’58 [Lafite] had been discussed to our mutual satisfaction.”

I do like the verb: to discuss a decanter. Presumably only in company — one cannot discuss it alone.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 22:55 Sat 07 May 2016

jdaw1 wrote:Wayward Tendrils of the Vine (1947), Ian Maxwell Campbell, page 61: “I remember another evening at ‘The Oaks’, again after a decanter of the ’58 [Lafite] had been discussed to our mutual satisfaction.”

I do like the verb: to discuss a decanter. Presumably only in company — one cannot discuss it alone.

Yes, you can discuss a decanter alone. One can also discuss a meal, either alone or with others. Or at least I think I could cite a precedent.

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 23:15 Sat 07 May 2016

LGTrotter wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Wayward Tendrils of the Vine (1947), Ian Maxwell Campbell, page 61: “I remember another evening at ‘The Oaks’, again after a decanter of the ’58 [Lafite] had been discussed to our mutual satisfaction.”

I do like the verb: to discuss a decanter. Presumably only in company — one cannot discuss it alone.
Yes, you can discuss a decanter alone. One can also discuss a meal, either alone or with others. Or at least I think I could cite a precedent.

Possibly causing you to be committed if overheard by the authorities

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 21:06 Sun 08 May 2016

Having given the precedent some thought I have come up with this.
"When the preparations were finished, he invited me with -"Now sir, bring forward your chair." And we all, including the rustic youth, drew round the table: an austere silence prevailing while we discussed our meal."
Wuthering Heights, chapter 2, Emily Bronte.

Now I would think that as you can 'discuss' a meal in silence it would not be necessary to have company to 'discuss' either a meal or a decanter. And yes Julian it is a lovely usage.

Post by **jdaw1** » 21:20 Sun 08 May 2016

Shorter OED (1985): “Discuss … v. … 7. To try the quality of (food or drink); to consume. (Somewhat joc.) 1815.”

The sort of event that would have been formerly have been called an “emergency” might in the future be titled “To discuss a few bottles of Port”.

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 16:42 Mon 09 May 2016

jdaw1 wrote:Shorter OED (1985): “Discuss … v. … 7. To try the quality of (food or drink); to consume. (Somewhat joc.) 1815.”

The sort of event that would have been formerly have been called an “emergency” might in the future be titled “To discuss a few bottles of Port”.

Perhaps I should retitle the F63 case tasting to "A discussion of F63"?

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 21:40 Mon 30 May 2016

djewesbury wrote:More from Ms Sayers. Nine Tailors. Having already had a bottle of claret with his lunch, Peter Wimsey has opened a bottle of Tuke Holdsworth 08 (the same vintage that the Rector remarks 'couldn't hurt a fly' at the beginning of the book, which Owen noted elsewhere).
' "This is very excellent port. Be good enough to finish the bottle, Bunter, because it would be a pity to waste it and if I have any more I shall be too sleepy to drive." '
This is in a book where he's already managed to drive his Daimler into a ditch...

Lord Peter, in the same book, also recommends the pub "...the Cat and Fiddle, where the port is remarkable and the claret not to be despised..."

My kind of pub.

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 19:47 Mon 21 Nov 2016

Charles Symington commented to me that Kind Hearts and Coronets includes a reference to Port. He couldn't be certain which port it was but believed it could have been Cockburn 1896.

Doggett · Post by **Doggett** » 20:43 Mon 21 Nov 2016

Charles is correct on shipper...but the year is slightly earlier.

HENRY. Most interesting. My lord, the port is with you.
LOUIS. Oh.
HENRY. How do you find the wine?
LOUIS. Admirable.
HENRY. Cockburn '69.
LOUIS. Mm.
HENRY. No finer year, in my view. My doctor, though, is of a different opinion.
LOUIS. And what does he favour?
HENRY. Abstinence!

Post by **jdaw1** » 22:19 Tue 22 Nov 2016

Doggett wrote:HENRY. Cockburn '69.

Sixty-nine?! Faked by Croft; produced by none other (I scorn your sole reference to Martinez.)

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 06:39 Wed 23 Nov 2016

Going back to my notes, Charles did say that the reference was to the Cockburn 1869. When I typed my post my finger autocorrected the obvious error.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 01:02 Sun 08 Jan 2017

Dorothy Sayers again in "Busman's honeymoon" (not one of her strongest) has Bunter, Wimsey's valet exploding with rage when Mrs Ruddle washes and stands upright two and a half dozen of the Cockburn '96. The horror.
Just for variation I am looking into a reference in Raymond Chandler's "The High Window", but I don't think there is mention of a shipper or year. More anon.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 10:06 Sun 08 Jan 2017

LGTrotter wrote:Dorothy Sayers again in "Busman's honeymoon" (not one of her strongest) has Bunter, Wimsey's valet exploding with rage when Mrs Ruddle washes and stands upright two and a half dozen of the Cockburn '96. The horror.
Just for variation I am looking into a reference in Raymond Chandler's "The High Window", but I don't think there is mention of a shipper or year. More anon.

Do you not remember we covered the Scandal of the Cockburn 96 a while ago in this thread? You must have been drinking too much of the stuff.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 22:19 Thu 12 Jan 2017

djewesbury wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:Dorothy Sayers again in "Busman's honeymoon" (not one of her strongest) has Bunter, Wimsey's valet exploding with rage when Mrs Ruddle washes and stands upright two and a half dozen of the Cockburn '96. The horror.
Just for variation I am looking into a reference in Raymond Chandler's "The High Window", but I don't think there is mention of a shipper or year. More anon.
Do you not remember we covered the Scandal of the Cockburn 96 a while ago in this thread? You must have been drinking too much of the stuff.

That I am tediously repetitive I will allow, but I think this is the first reference to "Busman's Honeymoon" made here or indeed anywhere else on this forum, unless I am wrong. Which has been known. Good day to you sir!

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 09:40 Fri 13 Jan 2017

LGTrotter wrote:That I am tediously repetitive I will allow, but I think this is the first reference to "Busman's Honeymoon" made here or indeed anywhere else on this forum, unless I am wrong. Which has been known. Good day to you sir!

Gad. I stand corrected then. I feel sure I had discussed those unfortunate bottles and poor unfortunate Mrs Ruddles with you all. That Noakes was always a bad lot though to be frank (rather than Frank) I think if I'd lived in the village I'd have murdered the lot of them, starting with Harriet.