Pudding then cheese, or cheese then pudding?

[jdaw1]

Mary Berry has caused consternation among the dinner party-giving classes by suggesting that cheese should come before dessert, writes Ben Milne.

Which comes first - the tarte or the Tallegio? As weighty dilemmas go, it's not exactly the Schleswig-Holstein question, but Mary Berry's admission on TV last night - "At my dinner parties, I like to serve the cheese before the pudding" - has caused a sharp intake of breath on Twitter. In the words of Woman's Hour presenter Jane Garvey, "It's the morning after Mary Berry said she serves cheese before pudding. Nothing will ever be quite the same again. #dinnerparty"

Once things were simple - the English drove on the left, kept their socks on in bed, and served cheese after the dessert. But Berry has placed a bomb (or perhaps a bombe) under this last assumption.

Guardian food critic Matthew Fort is in complete agreement with her. He believes that the British custom of dessert, then cheese, is just a hangover from a bygone age. "It rather depends whether you're clad in the fustian of Victorian habit or you embrace the common ground with our European cousins," he says.

"I always serve cheese before pudding because I like the meal to end on a sweet note." He believes this celebrates "Britain's own contribution to gastronomic culture - the pudding - by making it the full stop and sometimes the exclamation mark".

But this is not an opinion shared by everyone, and the the habits of several generations may be hard to shake. While many English people would concur with the sentiments of John Shuttleworth's song, "I'm halfway through my pudding/ I can't go back to savoury now," Tim Hayward, author of Food DIY is not one of them:

"It's one of those pieces of English middle-class francophilia which drives me up the wall. It's just wrong!" he says of cheese-before-dessert.

He thinks that this trend originated with a post-war generation influenced by the food writer Elizabeth David, which championed foreign food and was disparaging about home-grown customs. "My generation are positioned against that denial of Britishness," he says.

"English cheese is now the best in the world," he says. Serving it last is a good idea because "it's so social - everyone kicks back and that's when the great conversation begins - you re-write the constitution or discover gravity".

No mention of the nectar of the gods? Just none?! The peasants.

[AW77]

This reminds me of the Big-Endian/Little-Endian egg controversy in Gulliver's Travels. It's as unimportant as that.
Perhaps each human being should search one's conscience and then decide.

I would go for a third solution. Have only pudding and a glass of Port.

[djewesbury]

ONLY pudding?? André, you've taken what was a relatively straightforward conundrum and turned it into a minefield of poor etiquette and entirely unnecessary deprivation. Why? WHY??

[AW77]

Simply because I like something sweet like pudding at the end of a meal a lot more than cheese. Cheese is great on it's own, but not really necessary after a good meal (in my eyes). So only (chocolate) pudding for me.
Perhaps we could call this the "third way of dessert". I think Tony and Bill would like that.

[djewesbury]

Perhaps we could call this the "third way of dessert". I think Tony and Bill would like that.

[jdaw1]

Countering the argument was Stephen Ringer who said "the English custom of sweet then cheese allows for the serving of port with the cheese after the dessert wine. Much the better idea."

Good.

[DRT]

This reminds me of the Big-Endian/Little-Endian egg controversy in Gulliver's Travels.

How strange. I used that same analogy to describe the difference between visual observers v astro photographers on an astronomy forum only two weeks ago, having never thought of it for more than two or three decades. It often amazes me how such coincidences happen.

[djewesbury]

Nothing is a coincidence. We are all part of the great brain. More port, quickly.

[DRT]

Somehow I knew you were going to say that.

[PhilW]

This reminds me of the Big-Endian/Little-Endian egg controversy in Gulliver's Travels.

How strange. I used that same analogy

I refuse to byte.

[LGTrotter]

'Another thing which is upsetting the port habit is the new continental fashion for eating dessert after cheese. This has much to be said for it from the food angle, but it destroys the whole wine arrangement since most of the strong, fermented cheeses can be accompanied by nothing but port; nobody wants to drink vintage port with strawberry tart; and nobody wants to go back to dessert wine after drinking port. The only solution to this agonising problem is not to eat pudding.' Auberon Waugh; Waugh on Wine 1986.
There is nothing new under the sun.

[DRT]

Owen's alive!

I was worried that you were stuck under water. Welcome back.

[AW77]

But you could eat Mousse au chocolat with the port. This would do nicely, don't you think?
PS: Great to have you back Owen.

[djewesbury]

Hello Owen! A lot has happened since you've been away. André and me went to Porto!
I'm on the cheese course right now.

[djewesbury]

André, I have just eaten some 100% chocolate, and it was quite incredible. It also went rather nicely with Croft 04 LBV.

[DRT]

I had lamb chops for lunch and I'm about to have a T-bone steak for pudding. Not sure I'll manage the cheese course but will let you know...

[AW77]

This sounds quite interesting. And I really should open this bottle of Croft 04 LBV in my cellar. It's mentioned so often here on TNF that it seems to be a kind of staple port.
I like dark chocolate, too. But ever since a heard a lecture about chocolate a month ago, I know about the cadmium problem in chocolate with a high degree of cocoa. This has put me off a bit of dark chocolate.

[djewesbury]

Cadmium problem?
Only one bottle of Cr 04 LBV??

[AW77]

Cocoa trees grow on soil that has in general a high level of cadmium, so there is quite lot of cadmium in cocoa. Which is not a problem with milk chocolate, but with the recent trend in ever darker chocolates this is becoming a problem. So if you ever have children, better give them only milk chocolate.
Before stocking up on any wine, I want to try it first. So only one bottle of C04 LBV. For inspection.

[djewesbury]

Well well. I will quiz my local chocolatier about this!

[DRT]

Is Cadmium the prime ingredient in Cadbury's?

If so, it is yummy and promotes health and well being.

[jdaw1]

Somewhere I read that chocolate has lots of lead in it. A fact best ignored.

[DRT]

A quick google search revealed this:

Excessive cadmium consumption can cause nausea, gastrointestinal pain, softening of bones and kidney damage. Cadmium accumulates within the kidneys and can eventually cause renal failure.

A. N. Other (Scientist)

...and this:

Washing kidneys in Talisker removes excess cadmium.

Someone in Derbyshire (Optimist)

I think we are ok.

[AW77]

I like puns too. But can't think of none right now to reply. Too late here on the continent. So good night.

[jdaw1]

I had lamb chops for lunch and I'm about to have a T-bone steak for pudding. Not sure I'll manage the cheese course but will let you know...

Washing kidneys in Talisker removes excess cadmium.

Someone in Derbyshire (Optimist)

If, hypothetically, your life coach were to see these, what ought the life coach to say?

Clue: praise for not eating (all of) the cheese would be an incorrect answer.

[DRT]

I had lamb chops for lunch and I'm about to have a T-bone steak for pudding. Not sure I'll manage the cheese course but will let you know...

Washing kidneys in Talisker removes excess cadmium.

Someone in Derbyshire (Optimist)

If, hypothetically, your life coach were to see these, what ought the life coach to say?

Clue: praise for not eating (all of) the cheese would be an incorrect answer.

Would he tell me that I should never eat cheese late at night in case it gives me nightmares and raises my blood pressure?

[djewesbury]

The life of the health fanatic is gruelling and arduous. What is DRT actually allowed to eat?

[jdaw1]

What is DRT actually allowed to eat?

Allowed? He is his own master, even though a foolish one.

Should? Less. And he knows it.

[djewesbury]

He needs the Nigel Lawson diet. Rather than the complete works of Nigella Lawson.

[LGTrotter]

This reminds me of the Big-Endian/Little-Endian egg controversy in Gulliver's Travels. It's as unimportant as that.

A man who will not mind his stomach will mind very little as somebody said.

[LGTrotter]

This reminds me of the Big-Endian/Little-Endian egg controversy in Gulliver's Travels. It's as unimportant as that.

A man who will not mind his stomach will mind very little as somebody said.

Actually it seems to be 'He who does not mind his belly will hardly mind anything else', Johnson, bien sur...

[djewesbury]

This reminds me of the Big-Endian/Little-Endian egg controversy in Gulliver's Travels. It's as unimportant as that.

A man who will not mind his stomach will mind very little as somebody said.

Actually it seems to be 'He who does not mind his belly will hardly mind anything else', Johnson, bien sur...

I can confirm that André minds his belly.

[AW77]

I can confirm that André minds his belly.

Guilty as charged.