Port brand abbreviations

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jdaw1
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Glenn E. wrote: 17:06 Thu 05 Sep 2024Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?

Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
I have asked David G. by WhatsApp and by email.
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

jdaw1 wrote: 22:01 Thu 05 Sep 2024
Glenn E. wrote: 17:06 Thu 05 Sep 2024Perhaps an email to someone at Fonseca is in order? Does anyone have a contact that they could ask?

Was Guimaraens a separate company that released its own Ports back in the day? And why do the more recent (1982, 2015) bottles of Quinta do Cruzeiro say Guimaraens but not Fonseca? (I.e. does TFP still reserve the right to use Guimaraens as a stand-alone brand, as opposed to a second label for Fonseca?)
I have asked David G. by WhatsApp and by email.
But it's harvest time, so don't expect a reply until December.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Port brand abbreviations

Post by Andy Velebil »

The history of Guimaraens is very complicated. However, Fonseca and Guimaraens were two separate companies until Alistair merged them, IIRC in the late 60’s. I will look back through an old article I wrote on the history of the company (old computer and need to find the file. But it was an article on FTLOP).

Edit: Found it. 1967 they were merged.

https://www.fortheloveofport.com/fonsec ... orce-club/
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

Andy Velebil wrote: 01:41 Fri 06 Sep 2024 The history of Guimaraens is very complicated. However, Fonseca and Guimaraens were two separate companies until Alistair merged them, IIRC in the late 60’s. I will look back through an old article I wrote on the history of the company (old computer and need to find the file. But it was an article on FTLOP).

Edit: Found it. 1967 they were merged.

https://www.fortheloveofport.com/fonsec ... orce-club/
Huh. Yes, that's a rather complex history! I have seen and tasted Fonseca Guimaraens Ports from both 1964 and 1965. I assume TFP owned both prior to the merge?

Winesearcher has greyed-out vintages going back to 1919 for Fonseca Guimaraens, but without being able to see pictures associated with those listings I suspect that some (all?) of them are actually just Guimaraens and not Fonseca Guimaraens.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »


Glenn E. wrote:Winesearcher has greyed-out vintages going back to 1919 for Fonseca Guimaraens, but without being able to see pictures associated with those listings I suspect that some (all?) of them are actually just Guimaraens and not Fonseca Guimaraens.
But you could do a VPID search.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Vista Alegre: VA?
M.Charlton
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by M.Charlton »

jdaw1 wrote: 22:57 Wed 18 Sep 2024 Vista Alegre: VA?
Yes please.
MigSU
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by MigSU »

VA is an unfortunate abbreviation.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

MigSU wrote: 23:04 Wed 18 Sep 2024 VA is an unfortunate abbreviation.
Indeed. But I cannot think of a better abbreviation to use.

But also... the company is Vista Alegre, but the brand is Vallegre. I think that means that the abbreviation should be derived from Vallegre, though even in that case I cannot think of anything better than VA. Though I believe in that case it should be Va?
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

https://www.vallegre.pt/en/vallegre/

V’s in use:
V = Quinta do Vesuvio
VC = Capela da Quinta do Vesuvio
VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria
VF = Quinta de Val da Figueira
Vl = Quinta do Vallado
VM = Quinta de Vale Meão
Vr = Porto Valriz
VS = Vieira de Sousa
Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo
VZ = Van Zeller
MigSU
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by MigSU »

Va would seem more appropriate.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by M.Charlton »

My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.
MigSU
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by MigSU »

M.Charlton wrote: 00:14 Thu 19 Sep 2024 My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.
Now that you mention it, you're absolutely right. I don't recall ever seeing a Vallegre Port.
VA it is, then. Good luck, Vista Alegre.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

M.Charlton wrote: 00:14 Thu 19 Sep 2024 My understanding is that “VALLEGRE” is used as the brand for table wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

And that “VISTA ALEGRE” is used as the brand for Port wines.
See —> https://www.vallegre.pt/conteudos/produ ... &idioma=en

High likelihood of me being thick btw, as it’s late.
Huh. I do have Port in my cellar labeled with both, but not any that is just labeled with Vallegre.

VA it is.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.

Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand. (Their Peace & Love brand has, so far, only been used for non Vintage Ports.)

We need an abbreviation for them.

P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca

Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Justin K »

Diez - Dz or DZ?
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

Justin K wrote:Diez - Dz or DZ?
Dz
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by MigSU »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 15:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024 Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.

Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand. (Their Peace & Love brand has, so far, only been used for non Vintage Ports.)

We need an abbreviation for them.

P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca

Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?
Pn seems appropriate.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

PhilW wrote: 18:44 Fri 04 Oct 2024
Justin K wrote:Diez - Dz or DZ?
Dz
Dz
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jdaw1
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 15:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024Carlos Alonso Douro Wines Lda have vineyards around Alijó. While mainly a winemaker, they have also been making Vintage Port for the last decade or so and have declared several vintages in those years.

Their Vintage Ports are bottled, shipped and sold under the Piano brand.
Alex Bridgeman wrote: 15:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?
No objection to Pn.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 15:16 Fri 04 Oct 2024 P - the single capital letter feels wrong for a small family business.
Pi - is used for Pintas
Pa - is used for Quinta da Pacheca

Which really only leaves Pn.

Any objections?
Ugh.

Pn should be Pintas and Pi should be Piano.

It's confusing enough to me to suggest that, if Pi cannot be changed, then we should use Po for Piano.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

PhilW wrote: 14:51 Tue 28 May 2013Pa = Quinta da Pacheca
PA = Quinta da Pedra Alta
= Poças
Pe = Petre
Pg = Quinta do Pego
Pi = Pintas
Pn = Piano by Carlos Alonso Douro Wines
Po = Quinta do Pessegueiro
Pr = Quinta da Prelada
Ps = Quinta do Passadouro
Pt = Quinta do Portal
Pt+ = Quinta do Portal+
PtM = Portal Quinta dos Muros
Palmer? Pl or Pm?
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by winesecretary »

Pl. Pm easily confused with Pn.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

jdaw1 wrote: 19:38 Mon 11 Nov 2024 Palmer[/url]? Pl or Pm?
Referencing previous comments:
jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Thu 16 May 2024
PhilW wrote: 08:45 Thu 16 May 2024Referencing earlier discussion, we have previously only assigned permanent abbreviations for brands which have released vintage ports for ~3 vintages or more; do these meet that criteria? is that criteria still reasonable?
Very reasonable. And I had forgotten that.
Has any vintage port been released under the Palmer brand? (I only aware of their colheitas).
If not, perhaps no need to add Palmer to formal abbreviation list, unless we wish to extend to colheitas now.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

PhilW wrote: 22:29 Mon 11 Nov 2024unless we wish to extend to colheitas now.
That is a fair question. We do seem to have strayed into colheita-land, so much that signposts would probably be welcome.
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