Port brand abbreviations

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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 07:36 Sun 23 Apr 2023While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.
No objection.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

jdaw1 wrote: 20:12 Sun 23 Apr 2023
Alex Bridgeman wrote: 07:36 Sun 23 Apr 2023While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.
No objection.
Fine by me also. FYI, the VPID includes photos of 75, 80, 82 and 90 for Petre's brand, while the tasting note index has notes for 90, 94 and 95. So at least six vintages in total, more than enough to justify its own abbreviation.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

Alex Bridgeman wrote:While on the letter P, can we grab Pe for Petre’s Port? We have tasting notes for 3 vintages in the index and I’m sure there are at least another couple of vintages about.
Works for me.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

jdaw1 wrote: 23:59 Wed 26 Aug 2020We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?


Glenn E. wrote: 23:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.
One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.
Three years ago we discussed Mourão ≈ São Leonardo, but failed to conclude. Using Mr for Mourão was unpopular. So should it be SL = São Leonardo for both?

I say yes: SL for São Leonardo and for Mourão. Objections? (Objections must be accompanied by a better suggestion.)
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

Quinta do Mourão has two brands: São Leonardo and Rio Bom. Miguel told me that they are the same wine but branded for different markets. I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels because... and it's only a vague memory... I think I was told that they do not own the rights to that brand much like Quinta do Silval does not own the rights to "Silval" on a label (Noval does).

Which is a long way of saying that I do not think that QM or Mr is appropriate, but also that SL should potentially only serve for SL-branded bottles. The other bottles should theoretically be RB.

Note that the precedent set by Dalva and Presidential does not seem applicable to me, as Dalva is the actual name of the company and Presidential simply a rebrand for North America. In this case both are brands only.

(Kopke and Porto Rocha is no longer an appropriate example, because though PR was originally re-launched for the NA market it now seems to be available in other markets and is more accurately a sister brand to Kopke rather than a market-specific re-brand like Dalva and Presidential.)

So... Yes for SL. I remain open to the idea of RB being treated as a rebrand of SL, but currently think it should be its own abbreviation.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by MigSU »

Glenn E. wrote: 01:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels
https://www.portugalvineyards.com/pt/do ... 50368.html
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

jdaw1 wrote:
jdaw1 wrote: 23:59 Wed 26 Aug 2020We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?


Glenn E. wrote: 23:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.
One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.
Three years ago we discussed Mourão ≈ São Leonardo, but failed to conclude. Using Mr for Mourão was unpopular. So should it be SL = São Leonardo for both?

I say yes: SL for São Leonardo and for Mourão. Objections? (Objections must be accompanied by a better suggestion.)
I have only seen San Leonardo branding on their ports, both tawnies/Colheitas/white and vintage; so yes agree, SL.

Note that QdMourao has recently been sold, so we will have to wait and see what branding is used in future by the new owners.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

MigSU wrote: 13:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023
Glenn E. wrote: 01:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels
https://www.portugalvineyards.com/pt/do ... 50368.html
Point taken. Though I was talking about Port, I wasn't aware that they used "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any table wine either.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

SL = São Leonardo
has been added to the first post.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Dm = Dolamore?
jdaw1 wrote: 22:44 Fri 08 Sep 2023 First post has images of the current draft of the placemats.

Dm chosen as the abbreviation for Dolamore, as it was in October 2013 (second session, page 2, top). NB: Dl = Dalva; DM = Quinta Dona Matilde.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote: 09:41 Sat 09 Sep 2023 Dm = Dolamore?
jdaw1 wrote: 22:44 Fri 08 Sep 2023 First post has images of the current draft of the placemats.

Dm chosen as the abbreviation for Dolamore, as it was in October 2013 (second session, page 2, top). NB: Dl = Dalva; DM = Quinta Dona Matilde.
Ick. While allowed, having both DM and Dm seems ripe to cause confusion.

Perhaps Do for Dolomore?
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Glenn E. wrote: 04:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023Perhaps Do for Dolomore?
Too much like Dow.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

Glenn E. wrote: 04:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023
jdaw1 wrote: 09:41 Sat 09 Sep 2023 Dm = Dolamore?
Ick. While allowed, having both DM and Dm seems ripe to cause confusion.

Perhaps Do for Dolomore?
I'm less worried about Dm vs DM. We already have similarly VZ (Van Zeller) vs Vz (Quinta de Ventozelo), and I suspect there will be others.
Admittedly I've started pre-pending with"q" for the brands which are purely "Quinta de/da/do/dos/de la", which while not accepted here (for fairly judged brevity reasoning as much as anything else) does also help with these particular cases (Dm vs qDM, and VZ vs qVz).
I don't mind Do, but prefer Dm, for Dolamore.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Mon 11 Sep 2023 Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.
While I do still prefer Do, this reasoning suffices for me.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

Dm added to official list.



Glenn E. wrote: 04:09 Mon 11 Sep 2023Perhaps Do for Dolomore?
Also, Dolamore
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

jdaw1 wrote: 20:18 Mon 11 Sep 2023 Dolamore and Quinta Dona Matilde are of different eras, with, I suspect, no vintages in common.
No good question should go unanswered; to the best of my knowledge:
- Dm : Dolamore BOB vintage port from 1966..1982
- BrDM : Barros Quinta Dona Matilde (single quinta) vintage port from 1982..2002
- (q)DM : Quinta Dona Matilde vintage port from 2007..present
and just to throw an anomaly in, since this is vintage port we're talking about, the Sainsbury BOB 1985 vintage port says on the label that it is Quinta Dona Matilde (with Barros only mentioned in small writing).
Anyway, I think we're good.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by akzy »

Glenn E. wrote: 01:33 Sat 26 Aug 2023 Quinta do Mourão has two brands: São Leonardo and Rio Bom. Miguel told me that they are the same wine but branded for different markets. I don't believe that they actually use "Quinta do Mourão" as a brand on any IVDP-approved labels because... and it's only a vague memory... I think I was told that they do not own the rights to that brand much like Quinta do Silval does not own the rights to "Silval" on a label (Noval does).

Which is a long way of saying that I do not think that QM or Mr is appropriate, but also that SL should potentially only serve for SL-branded bottles. The other bottles should theoretically be RB.
Would be nice to make a decision on this for an upcoming tasting in.... 5 days. I personally think Mo is suitable. Julian, apologies for not following the first rule of making placemats.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »


akzy wrote: Would be nice to make a decision on this for an upcoming tasting in.... 5 days. I personally think Mo is suitable. Julian, apologies for not following the first rule of making placemats.
I believe we did, and you're looking for SL30yt for your San Leonardo 30 year tawny from Quinta do Mourao.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by akzy »

Reading back this makes sense. Thanks Phil.
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

First post says:
SL = São Leonardo
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

For the Young Turks tasting, more abbreviations are needed. Please comment on the following.

Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).

Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?

Tc, for Tecedeiras?

SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?

Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by PhilW »

jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024 For the Young Turks tasting, more abbreviations are needed. Please comment on the following.

Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).

Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?

Tc, for Tecedeiras?

SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?

Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).
Referencing earlier discussion, we have previously only assigned permanent abbreviations for brands which have released vintage ports for ~3 vintages or more; do these meet that criteria? is that criteria still reasonable?
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Re: Port brand abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 »

PhilW wrote: 08:45 Thu 16 May 2024Referencing earlier discussion, we have previously only assigned permanent abbreviations for brands which have released vintage ports for ~3 vintages or more; do these meet that criteria? is that criteria still reasonable?
Very reasonable. And I had forgotten that.


jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Ph, for Quinta da Pacheca? Observe that already blocked are PA (Quinta da Pedra Alta), Pç (Poças), and Pe (Petre).
Website has multiple tawnies, two LBVs, and zero VPs. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation. But anyway, I’m changing my mind for this temporary abbreviation to Pa.


jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Gv, for Quinta da Gaivosa?
No website; internet knows of VPs 2015 and 2017. ⟹︎ No permanent abbreviation.


jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Tc, for Tecedeiras?
Website knows of Vintages 2016 and 2017 with other online evidence of a 2008, and LBVs 2014 and 2015. Also, unlike the table wine, it is “Quinta das Tecedeiras”. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Tc?


jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024SO, for Quinta Seara D’Ordens?
Website has VPs from every year 2013–2021. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. SO?


jdaw1 wrote: 19:17 Wed 15 May 2024Po for Quinta do Pessegueiro? Observe that already blocked are Pe (Petre), Ps (Passadouro), Pg (Pego), and Pi (Pintas).
Website has VPs 2014, ’16, ’17, ’18. ⟹︎ Yes, this is a question. Po?
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