Port brand abbreviations

[jdaw1]

Three-nil is enough: Km added.

[flash_uk]

Km preferred here also.

+1

[Glenn E.]

Km seems most logical to me as well.

[Alex Bridgeman]

In the vintage declaration listings 2005-2018 there are now some producers who do not appear in the Port House abbreviations list.

Does this need remedying?

[jdaw1]

In the vintage declaration listings 2005-2018 there are now some producers who do not appear in the Port House abbreviations list.

Does this need remedying?

Please say who is missing, and from there the usual process can happen.

[jdaw1]

A bit of chatter on Twitter revealed that Quinta da Pedra Alta are releasing at 2018 next year. Assuming the price isn’t insane, I might go for this since I haven’t bought and 2018 VP yet and none of the other options have really tempted me.

Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

[Glenn E.]

A bit of chatter on Twitter revealed that Quinta da Pedra Alta are releasing at 2018 next year. Assuming the price isn’t insane, I might go for this since I haven’t bought and 2018 VP yet and none of the other options have really tempted me.

Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.

DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

Ugh.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

[PhilW]

Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.

Agree.

DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).

[jdaw1]

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

[PhilW]

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

No objection here.

[Glenn E.]

DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).

I missed that we've previously used brand names, and greatly prefer DR in the first place, so switch my support to DR.

For the record, Smith Woodhouse is not a brand in the same way that DR, S. Leonardo, or Rio Bom are. Smith Woodhouse is a producer with its own quinta. I would even argue that Gould Campbell - which lacks its own quinta - is still not a brand in the same way that DR is. It, too, is a (former) producer with an independent history. DR, S. Leonardo, and Rio Bom are all proper brands - the have no history that I know of that is not associated with their respective companies.

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

Only that in Portuguese, the pronunciation of Mourão leaves the 'r' nearly silent. A single 'r' in Portuguese is usually (but not always) much closer to an English 'h' than an English 'r'. So when I look at Mr, it does not say Mourão to me.

But my objection is not fierce. I dislike both Mo and Mr, but cannot think of a better suggestion.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Mo is closer to the way in which the first syllable of the name of the quinta

[jdaw1]

I dislike both Mo and Mr

Agreed: I dislike both Mo and Mr.

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?

[Glenn E.]

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?

It isn't clear to me what the intent is with the new label. I hadn't heard of Rio Bom being used for anything other than their table wine until fairly recently, but now they also sell TWAIOA under that label. Their own website does not have an VP listed under Rio Bom, though, so it seems that it would be safe to use SL as the abbreviation.

I'd also forgotten that Quinta do Mourão is not the company - that would be Mário Braga, Herdeiros. They own 4 other quintas as well. So SL is seeming more an more appropriate.

Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

[jdaw1]

We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?

Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I’ve just come across a tasting note in my efforts to catch up with transferring them all from paper to electronic form for a Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval 1977 brought by Zak to a tasting last year.

We have ROC as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas. What should we use as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval? ROCv? Should we change Carvalhas to ROCs?

[akzy]

I can't think of a better solution. It's annoying that it would make them both four characters but given the 'RO' for royal oporto, doesn't seem like anything else that makes sense.

[Glenn E.]

It's also annoying that the two Quintas use essentially the same consonants. Either could be Cr or Cv.

Precedent says that Carvalhas should remain C, and that Corval should then be something not easily confused with Carvalhas. Perhaps Cl?

But if we're going to change Carvalhas, since I am more familiar with it I would prefer to use Cv for Carvalhas and Cr for Corval.

Or, despite Julian's preference for consonants, they could be Ca and Co.

[jdaw1]

I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?

[Alex Bridgeman]

Works for me

[winesecretary]

I am, with the utmost respect, with Glenn on this. Perhaps say ROCa and ROCo going forwards? A brief amendment could be made to the abbreviations list for the current ROC to explain the necessity for the updated terminology.

[Andy Velebil]

The odds of many TN's of this rare SQVP showing up are slim. Not worth changing what is already in place for a long established SQVP (Carvalhas). The ROCo is probably the best and easiest for Corval.

[Glenn E.]

I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?

Works for me.

[PhilW]

Either of ROCo or ROCv would work for me. I prefer the latter as lead letter of next syllable, but accept the former allows better differentiation.

[jdaw1]

There isn’t passionate unanimity, but the following seems to be broadly acceptable, with some liking and nobody strongly disliking. So decision taken.

ROC = Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas
ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval