Bordeaux Recommendations

[djewesbury]

(Not quoting because too fiddly to do on my iPhone)

Owen: It is owned by the conglomerate who own Léoville-Las Cases..

Alex: I will follow up the Wine Society Pauillac. I get that it may be made by a certain grower we've been discussing.

Derek: I will also follow up this bottle. As you say, at this price it's immoral not to. And I am keen to know the difference between second wines and second labels. I have not seen the Clos du Marquis yet I see the Croix de Beaucaillou is universally well-regarded.

[DRT]

I just picked-up 3 bottles of Leoville Barton 1967 for £45 each in an auction. The only other bottle I could find was a magnum at $600

Yes, I know, 2002 was probably the worst vintage since 1967, but how bad can a 2nd Growth be?

[LGTrotter]

Where do I begin?

Alex's rebuff of second wines I would broadly agree with. But for some beautifully correct Clos du Maquis 96 which I have now finished and the stunning Criox de Beaucaillou 09, which I do not think will make old bones but who cares? Drink it now until it's ten and it will serve you well. I last bought it for just over £20 in a shop. I also have a soft spot for the Carruades de Lafite which I flogged half a dozen of to Farr and bought half a dozen early landed cognac, a case of port, two cases of classed growth claret and Emma got a tour of Baths finest haberdasheries courtesy of yours truly's credit card. So Alex I would say to you; keep an open mind. And Daniel; it is a twinning of two souls that you happened to mention the two second wines I was thinking of.

Derek; STOP. Just stop. Don't spend any more of your lovingly garnered cash on claret until you have a clear grasp of what you are about. I don't care if you decide Alex or me or Robert Parker is most right about claret, find what you like then buy it. It isn't crazy expensive at the level you are talking about and it is worth drinking some older good vintages to see what you like. I would even urge you to get a good vintage of a few poshish classed growths, that may be your bag. But I am not sure that your random fronsac and appalling 67 will ever tell you much about claret. But I bought loads of gloomy claret too. And maybe the Leoville will spring to life, but I'd give you odds that it won't.

Wine society wines are good and reliable. I find them a little too stodgy though, a faint whiff of the anti-macassar, the stifling part of being English.

And Daniel next time you are in Waitrose when they have got their 25% off, have a look and see if they have still got any of the 09 or 10 Cru bourgeois, or anywhere you see names you recognise, the wines are still reasonable.

I would question the merit of keeping most clarets beyond a dozen years at the levels being mentioned. Drinking them becomes reminiscent of eating a stick as they get old.

Is this a trap to keep me chained to the keyboard?

[djewesbury]

And Daniel; it is a twinning of two souls that you happened to mention the two second wines I was thinking of.

You see? Julian thinks he hasn't met you; but how does he know that I really exist?

Wine society wines are good and reliable. I find them a little too stodgy though, a faint whiff of the anti-macassar, the stifling part of being English.

I was once very pro-macassar. I was all for him during the revolution, but then those ridiculous sumptuary laws on the upholstering of armchairs made me think again.

And Daniel next time you are in Waitrose when they have got their 25% off, have a look and see if they have still got any of the 09 or 10 Cru bourgeois, or anywhere you see names you recognise, the wines are still reasonable.

Would that we had such luxurious emporia in Northern Ireland. Planning was turned down for a massive out-of-town John Lewis a few years ago and they walked off with their noses in the air. But when I am in London next I will look.

This is an exciting new quest. Thanks for your very helpful advice and insights.

[LGTrotter]

Having re-read some of Derek's old posts I see that you do know what you like; oldish Batailley from good vintages. I think you liked the 89 which was a big sweet vintage like the 09, the 05 are similar. They will be fine in 15, 20 years time.

So maybe have a look at other Paulliac fifth growths, there are some belters. Peep next door and try a few more Saint Juliens. Maybe climb the ladder a bit, I do think it is worth getting decent vintages though, there are loads of them (10,09,08,05,01,00,96,95,90,89,88,85,you get the picture).

[LGTrotter]

Would that we had such luxurious emporia in Northern Ireland.

No 'trose? Blimey, no wonder it all gets so serious out there.

Alan Coren said; 'I like Sainsburys...keeps the riff-raff out of Waitrose.'

[DRT]

Having re-read some of Derek's old posts I see that you do know what you like; oldish Batailley from good vintages. I think you liked the 89 which was a big sweet vintage like the 09, the 05 are similar. They will be fine in 15, 20 years time.

So maybe have a look at other Paulliac fifth growths, there are some belters. Peep next door and try a few more Saint Juliens. Maybe climb the ladder a bit, I do think it is worth getting decent vintages though, there are loads of them (10,09,08,05,01,00,96,95,90,89,88,85,you get the picture).

Thank, you. That is where 90% of my claret budget is going, although I did sneak in some usual suspects from 2011 because they were too cheap to ignore and will serve as good cellar defenders to keep me off the 09s and 05s for a while longer.

The "random" stuff is exactly that. It is my way of dabbling in things I have never had before, even if I am knowingly stepping into dodgy territory. I did this when I bought a case of Chasse-Spleen and half a case of Gloria 1970 for £20-£25 per bottle. These turned out to be be fine drinking, albeit somewhat fragile if not consumed in a few hours, ant taught me that I am quite partial to a well-matured claret. The LB1967s are a step further into that territory. I shall report back. The random Forsac is an inexpensive punt on something semi-mature that I can drink now for £10 a bottle and see if I enjoy a different part of the region. Again, I will report back.

Please keep encouraging me to stay largely focussed on what is relatively safe, but don't stop the fun by telling me to stop experimenting otherwise you will not have the joy of seeing me type "WTF is this s*** all about?!?" in my extensive series of TNs.

[DRT]

PS: When I am feeling flush I will step up a gear and buy a mixed six of the good stuff, not the ridiculous stuff, the stuff you can get at around £100 a bottle.

[WS1]

I just picked-up 3 bottles of Leoville Barton 1967 for £45 each in an auction. The only other bottle I could find was a magnum at $600

Yes, I know, 2002 was probably the worst vintage since 1967, but how bad can a 2nd Growth be?

Be careful! 1967 is not as bad as you believe; e.g. Pomerols can be fantastic like Borgoneuf. Leoville Barton should be still respectable. I admit though left bank might be difficult.

regards

WS1

[WS1]

Having re-read some of Derek's old posts I see that you do know what you like; oldish Batailley from good vintages. I think you liked the 89 which was a big sweet vintage like the 09, the 05 are similar. They will be fine in 15, 20 years time.

So maybe have a look at other Paulliac fifth growths, there are some belters. Peep next door and try a few more Saint Juliens. Maybe climb the ladder a bit, I do think it is worth getting decent vintages though, there are loads of them (10,09,08,05,01,00,96,95,90,89,88,85,you get the picture).

I would not consider 08 a decent vintage. It can be not bad but with exceptions it is not great either. 03 left bank e.g. Montrose, Latour, Cos etc. was fantastic which should have been included in here. Right bank was especially 98 and in parts 06 brilliant. 95 is not bad to good but also difficult due to rain in the autumn which can result in a a bit bitterness in the finish of the wines.
Also I recomend not buying any 10s; they need at least 20 years from know to come round.

regards

WS1

[LGTrotter]

I would not consider 08 a decent vintage. It can be not bad but with exceptions it is not great either. 03 left bank e.g. Montrose, Latour, Cos etc. was fantastic which should have been included in here. Right bank was especially 98 and in parts 06 brilliant. 95 is not bad to good but also difficult due to rain in the autumn which can result in a a bit bitterness in the finish of the wines.

'Taste', as Oscar observed 'is a matter of taste'. I liked the 08, however I am someone who tends to read wine lists from right to left. I did wonder about including the 03s but decided, having moaned about them elsewhere to leave them out. It is the lack of consistency which makes me hesitate. I know nothing about right bank wines. The 95s seem to me to be a bit overlooked in favour of the 96s and for the most part they are comparable.

It's rather daring to back Derek's 67.

I should like to reiterate that my opinions are just that. It is very likely they are partial and judging from the contributions based on less experience than is available on this forum. I hope to have aroused some of you to put me straight and Derek on the path of wisdom.

[DRT]

Now, now, gents - stop squabbling about my '67s. At least one will be tasted in company to verify how stupid I have been, or otherwise.

Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

[djewesbury]

I'm looking forward to 1967, personally.

[LGTrotter]

Oh Derek; I found this for your 67 horizontal, it's from Pomerol, bet it's a belter! *sniggers*

https://www.bidforwine.co.uk/auctions/show/63599

My apologies to WS1 for any offence given by this weak joke.

[WS1]

Oh Derek; I found this for your 67 horizontal, it's from Pomerol, bet it's a belter! *sniggers*

https://www.bidforwine.co.uk/auctions/show/63599

My apologies to WS1 for any offence given by this weak joke.

? joke? There is only one bt of 1967 in that lot or have my eyes decived me?



I guess you have not crawled through many cellars buying wine ......

I leave especially the 1987 stuff to you....

[LGTrotter]

I guess you have not crawled through many cellars buying wine ...

I guess I crawl in the wrong circles...

There is only one bt of 1967 in that lot or have my eyes deceived me?

I thought it looked ideal for DRT, some random stuff.

I appreciate that the word 'joke' was a little overworked here. Thanks for the response, it made me smile.

[WS1]

I guess you have not crawled through many cellars buying wine ...

I guess I crawl in the wrong circles...

There is only one bt of 1967 in that lot or have my eyes deceived me?

I thought it looked ideal for DRT, some random stuff.

I appreciate that the word 'joke' was a little overworked here. Thanks for the response, it made me smile.

All fine; but DRT needs not more random stuff, he actually need to streamline his efforts! Especially since he has a tendency to cases oft port go missing in his cellar ...

In the old days we called this "doing KillerB".

Let us be serious and do a Bordeaux tasting in London as some point and based on the wines taste we see what DRT needs. But wildly tasting Bordeaux is not a good idea. I did do this for the last 25 years and despite fun it is rather expensive

At least I know know what I like and this is old Port, Claret, Rhone and Burgundy which is still good.

[LGTrotter]

DRT needs not more random stuff, he actually need to streamline his efforts!

His efforts to streamline himself are well documented elsewhere!

At least I know know what I like and this is old Port, Claret, Rhone and Burgundy which is still good.

+1, plus a little room for champagne? Oh to have the time, space and money. But as the poet says; 'for know, rash youth, that in this star crossed world fate drives us all to find our chiefest good in what we can, and not in what we would.'

[Alex Bridgeman]

I leave especially the 1987 stuff to you....

I object! 1987 has a poor reputation but there are some decent wines if you know what you are doing. Talbot and Mouton are two examples of pretty decent wines - although last time I had either of these was 10 years ago and I don't know how well they will have lasted.

[LGTrotter]

Further proof that there is always something to look for in every vintage. Talbot again, I may have to cruise BBX...

[DRT]

Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

My question was either missed or did not deserve a response.

[LGTrotter]

Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

My question was either missed or did not deserve a response.

S'alright. But a quaffer not a keeper. If you want to drink something now I thought it was competent. But I seem to like my wines less well hung than some.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Berrys' Good Ordinary Claret - £57 per dozen IB - how good is "Good"?

My question was either missed or did not deserve a response.

I'm not a huge fan. LGT's "S'alright." or CSD's "Meh" pretty much both sum up how I feel about it.

[WS1]

I leave especially the 1987 stuff to you....

I object! 1987 has a poor reputation but there are some decent wines if you know what you are doing. Talbot and Mouton are two examples of pretty decent wines - although last time I had either of these was 10 years ago and I don't know how well they will have lasted.

Hmm, I was not a fan of Mouton at all. The only two Bordeaux from 1987 I liked were Palmer and Lynch Bages. I heard La Mission Brion should be also OK. But not tried. All Premier Crus I did not like at all! So I state as in the first thread

The 87s are yours!

regards
WS1

[DRT]

Sorry, Owen, I had submitted my bid before you told me to stop and am now the proud owner of these beauties...

M-G1970.JPG (41.8 KiB) Viewed 5733 times

Try as I might I cannot find any reference to this producer anywhere on the web or in my books but did find "Château Maine Gazin" (note spelling) from the same region selling at £83 for a case of their 2005.

What could go wrong?