ThePortForum.com

Hi all

I have just bought a little barrel, and my plan is to fill it up with portwine.
The barrel is only 6 liter, and I know that the maturing will be fast, but witch type of port would be the best to put in the barrel, for ageing.
Colheita, LBV or Vintage ???

Any kind of help would be nice

I would suggest you experiment with the different types of port to see which works best. Since you are using a small barrel and therefore creating quite a lot of surface contact, I would suggest starting off with a 10 year old tawny which you can sample regularly, then try LBV or a ruby reserve.

I would suggest avoiding vintage port until you know how these two types of port mature in your new barrel.

the new barrels come pre medium toast

whatever you put in there will impart a woody/vanillan flavor to it.

I personally was going to put in a cheap ruby and see if i can start aging my own tawny.

Would it not be better to start with an unfiltered Port? Something like a Noval or Croft unfiltered LBV?

JacobH wrote:Would it not be better to start with an unfiltered Port? Something like a Noval or Croft unfiltered LBV?

I feel the cheaper the better to start because of the pre set medium toast that comes with the barrel.

After the first barrel session when the barrel reverts to neutral then I think it'd be best to play wiht some more expensive port.

AHB once brought an oaked South African Port to a tasting. It was rather nice (if slightly weird); I think they had run out of old barrels when it came to aging it!

Hi again

The barrel has already been used for Marsala.

So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel

should have told

hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)

JacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)

Sorry Jacob

JacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)

Two liters is not much. To make it worth the time and hassle, I'd want 20 liters as a minimum and work it like a solera. Not sure which port I'd use. Maybe a mix of tawny and ruby?

mosesbotbol wrote:

JacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)

Two liters is not much. To make it worth the time and hassle, I'd want 20 liters as a minimum and work it like a solera. Not sure which port I'd use. Maybe a mix of tawny and ruby?

Somebody is going to have to explain to me what the attraction is of maturing port in your own barrel. I don't understand (but in no way criticise those who want to) why I might want to fill a small barrel with mediocre port that I will have to drink before I move on to my bottle matured LBVs that have 20+ years of bottle age

Can someone please clue me in?

AHB wrote:

mosesbotbol wrote:

JacobH wrote:hmmm....I am concerned about how much money this thread is likely to cost me, since I am finding it hard to resist the temptation to buy one myself... It seems 2 litre barrels are available too, which seems like the perfect size to mature in an appropriate place in the kitchen (or study, or bedroom...)

Two liters is not much. To make it worth the time and hassle, I'd want 20 liters as a minimum and work it like a solera. Not sure which port I'd use. Maybe a mix of tawny and ruby?

Somebody is going to have to explain to me what the attraction is of maturing port in your own barrel. I don't understand (but in no way criticise those who want to) why I might want to fill a small barrel with mediocre port that I will have to drink before I move on to my bottle matured LBVs that have 20+ years of bottle age

Can someone please clue me in?

why would you fill it with mediocre port to age?

I personally was going to fill it with some fantastic niepoort rubies and utilize the solera method that moses mentioned.

It would certainly be my "house" port and one that I can hopefully pass the barrel down.

ac-fast wrote:Hi again

The barrel has already been used for Marsala.

So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel

should have told

Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?

Andy Velebil wrote:

ac-fast wrote:Hi again

The barrel has already been used for Marsala.

So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel

should have told

Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?

and if you bleached it and rinsed with hot water so no bacteria/mold/yeast/unneccessary friends grow in it.

I'm not sure I would have the patience to do a solera system with 20-something litre barrels. That's a pretty serious investment in time and money and I think I'd get bored of the Port before I managed to get through all of it!

That said I don't agree with AHB. Doing a small bit of home-maturation sounds like fun. We could spend all our time drinking Niepoort LBVs, Graham VPs and other top-level Ports but, for me, it's always interesting to throw in something a bit different.

I also like the idea of having a little barrel of Port so that you can have some Port from the wood, a bit like the old days when you could get a personalised Port blend shipped over in a Pipe.

JacobH wrote:That said I don't agree with AHB. Doing a small bit of home-maturation sounds like fun. We could spend all our time drinking Niepoort LBVs, Graham VPs and other top-level Ports but, for me, it's always interesting to throw in something a bit different.

I will be very happy to co-operate with anyone who would like to provide a demonstration of the fun that variety can bring.

I guess part of the problem is that I just have no idea how, say, a small barrel filled with Graham's Six Grapes will change and mature either when treated as a solera or even if filled and then slowly drunk before being refilled several days / months / years later.

Sure could be fun finding out though.

g-man wrote:

Andy Velebil wrote:

ac-fast wrote:Hi again

The barrel has already been used for Marsala.

So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel

should have told

Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?

and if you bleached it and rinsed with hot water so no bacteria/mold/yeast/unneccessary friends grow in it.

My questions are serious ones as most people think you can just buy a barrel and toss some wine in it and all will be ok. If the barrel has sat empty long enough it starts to dry out and may not seal (meaning you'll have to repair it or you may end up with a leaky mess). If it's too new you'll get a lot of wood notes (smoke, wood tannin, vanilla, etc) that will transfer from the barrel into the flavors of the wine inside. The other thing to consider is depending on the type of Port and how long it stays in barrel, you will at some point most likely need to rack it off the lees and clean out the barrel. Just some very important things to consider since he's asking for advice.

Otherwise I think it would be fun to try something like this. And as others pointed out, I'd start with a cheaper Port as a trial run to make sure all works out as intended/hoped for.

Andy Velebil wrote:

g-man wrote:

Andy Velebil wrote:

ac-fast wrote:Hi again

The barrel has already been used for Marsala.

So Im not expecting any flavour from the barrel

should have told

Just curious as to how long the barrel has sat empty? And how many years had it been used to store wine previously?

and if you bleached it and rinsed with hot water so no bacteria/mold/yeast/unneccessary friends grow in it.

My questions are serious ones as most people think you can just buy a barrel and toss some wine in it and all will be ok. If the barrel has sat empty long enough it starts to dry out and may not seal (meaning you'll have to repair it or you may end up with a leaky mess). If it's too new you'll get a lot of wood notes (smoke, wood tannin, vanilla, etc) that will transfer from the barrel into the flavors of the wine inside. The other thing to consider is depending on the type of Port and how long it stays in barrel, you will at some point most likely need to rack it off the lees and clean out the barrel. Just some very important things to consider since he's asking for advice.

Otherwise I think it would be fun to try something like this. And as others pointed out, I'd start with a cheaper Port as a trial run to make sure all works out as intended/hoped for.

no need to be testy, my response was serious. Bleaching ensures that you kill any living them in it. The hot water treatment afterwards ensures that the barrel is rehydrated along with washing out all the bleach one doesn't want to drink. Both are pretty standard treatment in a winery.

though i dont agree about rackinga nd cleaning out the barrel. They certainly didn't rack the barrels of wine they used to make the taylor scion or the grahams 1952.

Isn’t raking quite common for most tawny Ports? Not regularly but I thought it happened at least every decade or so.

I dont know how old the barrel is, or how long time since it has been used for masala.

When I put water in it, it ran out,(it was dry) - now after 2 days in water, it seems that it`s stoped.

The reason for doing this, is only for fun, to serve a glass of my own port - I have my own quinta, Quinta de Maria, named after my wife, with 25 grapes
Hopefully after 5 years, this year will be the first to make my own wine, and again... just for fun, Ill try to make some port, Have yoe ever tasted port, made of the grapes , Rondo, Carbernet cortis, and Regent.

JacobH wrote:Isn’t raking quite common for most tawny Ports? Not regularly but I thought it happened at least every decade or so.

for sediment?

if you utilized a commerciacl bottle it's already been racked for you.

only reason i can see you racking yourself is if you don't like that black sediment that would settle at the bottom of the sideways barrel ..

Also, I'd want to keep my barrel airtight and when aging my rubys i'm expecting them to have little or no contact wiht air

g-man wrote:

JacobH wrote:Isn’t raking quite common for most tawny Ports? Not regularly but I thought it happened at least every decade or so.

for sediment?

if you utilized a commerciacl bottle it's already been racked for you.

only reason i can see you racking yourself is if you don't like that black sediment that would settle at the bottom of the sideways barrel ..

Also, I'd want to keep my barrel airtight and when aging my rubys i'm expecting them to have little or no contact wiht air

Depending on the type of Port it can be racked several times a year or as little as once a year or longer. That would depend on how old it is, etc. Obviously the older it is the less lees will be dropped. So the older the wine is in barrel the less often you have to do it. But unless it is heavily filtered and cold stabilized it will continue to drop sediment (lees) in the barrel. At some point you have to clean the barrel to remove the old lees or you end up with some serious off flavors and other issues.

And as we all know, even an older filtered Tawny will still drop some sediment if left in bottle long enough. Now compound that by larger volume, and possibly a younger unfiltered/lightly filtered/filtered Port, and you can build up lees rather quickly (again depending on what was put in the barrel).

As for cleaning, I would NEVER use bleach. That is what was used many years ago and has since been proven as a leading cause of TCA in wineries. It's also why wineries no longer use bleach to clean a winery. There are many other things you can use such as Citric Acid in a water solution.

Andy Velebil wrote:

g-man wrote:

JacobH wrote:Isn’t raking quite common for most tawny Ports? Not regularly but I thought it happened at least every decade or so.

for sediment?

if you utilized a commerciacl bottle it's already been racked for you.

only reason i can see you racking yourself is if you don't like that black sediment that would settle at the bottom of the sideways barrel ..

Also, I'd want to keep my barrel airtight and when aging my rubys i'm expecting them to have little or no contact wiht air

Depending on the type of Port it can be racked several times a year or as little as once a year or longer. That would depend on how old it is, etc. Obviously the older it is the less lees will be dropped. So the older the wine is in barrel the less often you have to do it. But unless it is heavily filtered and cold stabilized it will continue to drop sediment (lees) in the barrel. At some point you have to clean the barrel to remove the old lees or you end up with some serious off flavors and other issues.

And as we all know, even an older filtered Tawny will still drop some sediment if left in bottle long enough. Now compound that by larger volume, and possibly a younger unfiltered/lightly filtered/filtered Port, and you can build up lees rather quickly (again depending on what was put in the barrel).

As for cleaning, I would NEVER use bleach. That is what was used many years ago and has since been proven as a leading cause of TCA in wineries. It's also why wineries no longer use bleach to clean a winery. There are many other things you can use such as Citric Acid in a water solution.

what is your term of lees? my definition is dead yeast like when i brew my beer. commercial port will have no lees at all when bottled that when i transfer them to an empty barrel there should be no lees at all.

2,4,6-trichloroanisole is caused by fungi. Why would bleach cause TCA?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate is a bleach and one that I use to sterilize my brewing gear. There's not even a chlorine compound available that would form TCA?
I would NEVER use a chlorine based compound in anything that I would consume!

Sodium percarbonate has a benefit in that in water it breaks down to soda ash and water and oxygen.

Thanks, Andy. I looked up how much racking goes on in Mayson's book last night (which reports it being done as frequently as you describe). I had no idea it was done so frequently, though I presume it must decrease a lot as the maturation continues. But perhaps I'm wrong about that, too.


Anyway, isn't the lees in Port anything that precipitates out of the wine? Early on that would include dead yeast but it must also include all of the particles which go on to form the crust in Vintage Port. Considering tawnies start off at about the same colour level as Vintage Ports, one can see how lots of this stuff would be produced. Though I don't quite understand why it is so bad to have it in the barrel; we don't worry about racking bottles of Port to remove what forms there.

oh i didn't realize OP wanted to actually MAKE his own port wine.

That's a whole different can of worms. In which case, you might want to look into getting a few carboys for primary fermentation.
Multiple carboys also help with the racking that Andy mentioned.

When you're ready to pour the brandy in for fortification give the barrel a good bleaching (sodium percarbonate) and do a final racking into the barrel.