Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

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JacobH
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Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by JacobH »

I’ve just booked some tickets for a couple of days in Oporto over the second May bank holiday (23-25th). Shamefully, it will be my first visit. :oops:

The first question is, of course, does anyone fancy an offline there (flights are c. £120 on Ryan Air and £200 on TAP)? :-)

More seriously, I was wondering if I could have some advice: if you were in my position, spending the first two days in Oporto, what would you go to see? I’ve had quite disappointing experiences in other wine and spirit producing regions. Whilst some tours of cellars have been excellent some have been fairly superficial and glossy. There also seems to be a preference to following them up with a glass of the cheapest produce made by the company (which always seems fairly silly to me--it’s put me off Piper Heidsieck for life). I’m not sure if any of the lodges are like that; but it would be good to know before-hand. I was also wondering if any of the lodges are amenable to arranging more interesting tours if one asks nicely, or is a personal contact a pre-requisite?

Apologies if this is a repost; I have a feeling I have read through similar threads before, but looking now I can’t see to find them!

Many thanks

-Jacob
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by benread »

Jacob,

You only had to scroll down the page a little to find this! Any advice you can add based on recent experience would be welcome.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by JacobH »

benread wrote:You only had to scroll down the page a little to find this! Any advice you can add based on recent experience would be welcome.
I did, which is why I feel I’ve got a good idea of where to stay and where to eat :-). What didn’t seem to be mentioned in that thread was which lodges to visit on a short trip, which is why I was wondering if I might have some advice from those who have visited before.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Glenn E. »

I recommend the Ramos Pinto lodge tour. They have converted their old HQ building into a museum, and the tour gives you a good amount of history on the company that is different than what other tours give.

The Sandeman lodge tour is probably the most touristy and glitzy in Gaia, but it's still a good tour. They also have a (small) museum inside the lodge that you can wander through, and some fun stories about the floods (which are marked on the walls both inside and out).

Taylor Fladgate is also nice, but it's up a pretty steep hill. Their tasting room is one of the better ones, too.

Since most of the lodges are open to the general public, you're only going to get pretty basic Port after the tour. They just can't afford to open anything else, really, given the number of tourists who visit in any given year. A white and a ruby are pretty typical, though some places might also serve a tawny instead of the white. Some might even serve all three.

Fancier and/or more intimate tours and tastings are possible, but generally require a contact. Sadly, I have none.

But really, if you're looking to drink Port, the lodges aren't the right answer. Go to Vinologia. (The website is in French and German.) For contrast, visit the Solar do Vinho do Porto as well. And if you're looking to buy a bottle or two, especially if you're interested in the smaller independent producers, visit Maria Teresa at AVEPOD.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by DRT »

Jacob,

I'm glad to hear you will be losing your virginity at last :wink:

I agree with Glenn's recommendation on the lodges. They are all tourist traps and, in general, don't give away the good stuff. Graham and Taylor are both excellent to visit and I think both will sell you "special" ports to taste at a reasonably small cost. Sandeman used to do a special tour for a few Euros where you were given premium ports rather then the standard white, ruby and tawny. Have a look at their website as you may be able to book this before you go.

My advice would be that if you are going for two days don't spend both of them touring the lodges. You will quickly tire of hearing that "port is a fortified wine made from grapes grown in the Douro valley" and being shown the difference in colour between white, red and tawny :lol:

If you have two full days to fill buy yourself a train ticket and get yourself up into the Douro, even if only just to look out the window and spot all those places you have heard about and never seen. In my opinion that journey brings the whole thing into perspective far ore than a standard lodge tour ever can. You need to go as far as Pinhao to see anything meaningful which involves a change of train at Regua. You can find train timetables at http://www.cp.pt


A few questions to help us give you best advice:

1. Are you going alone?
2. Where are you staying?
3. When do you arrive and leave? (times as well as dates!)
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by RonnieRoots »

In contrast of Derek, I would advise you to stay in Porto. The Douro really deserves a longer visit, and there's plenty to see in Porto for two days. It's a beautiful city, and we always enjoy just walking around, having a drink here and there, and enjoying the views.

I would also suggest Ramos Pinto. A very nice look into the history of this port house. Another good one for history is Ferreira. The Taylor's restaurant is a great place for lunch, especially if the weather is good and you can sit outside. Of course, the wine and port list is good.

If you want a more special cellar tour, see if you can arrange an appointment with Niepoort. Just send them an e-mail with the request and you might get lucky.

The tour at Kopke used to be pretty good, and it was very nice to see a small, working port lodge in contrast to all the big touristy ones. But I believe they changed policy there after the Sogevinus takeover, and I don't know how it is now. Krohn is also a nice, small lodge to visit.

Have fun! :D
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by JacobH »

Thanks to everyone for their replies.
Glenn E. wrote:I recommend the Ramos Pinto lodge tour. They have converted their old HQ building into a museum, and the tour gives you a good amount of history on the company that is different than what other tours give.

The Sandeman lodge tour is probably the most touristy and glitzy in Gaia, but it's still a good tour. They also have a (small) museum inside the lodge that you can wander through, and some fun stories about the floods (which are marked on the walls both inside and out).

Taylor Fladgate is also nice, but it's up a pretty steep hill. Their tasting room is one of the better ones, too.
Thanks for those recommendations. I had though I really ought to see Taylor no matter how bad the tour is!
Glenn E. wrote:Since most of the lodges are open to the general public, you're only going to get pretty basic Port after the tour. They just can't afford to open anything else, really, given the number of tourists who visit in any given year. A white and a ruby are pretty typical, though some places might also serve a tawny instead of the white. Some might even serve all three.
Yes, that's entirely true. My comment was more a general bemoaning of that problem rather than because of a specific desire to drink decent port! I've never understood why they go for the drink which is most likely to make people never drink it again (and this seems to happen the world over).
Glenn E. wrote:But really, if you're looking to drink Port, the lodges aren't the right answer. Go to Vinologia. (The website is in French and German.) For contrast, visit the Solar do Vinho do Porto as well. And if you're looking to buy a bottle or two, especially if you're interested in the smaller independent producers, visit Maria Teresa at AVEPOD.
Thanks again, I will endeavour to follow those up!
DRT wrote:My advice would be that if you are going for two days don't spend both of them touring the lodges. You will quickly tire of hearing that "port is a fortified wine made from grapes grown in the Douro valley" and being shown the difference in colour between white, red and tawny :lol:

If you have two full days to fill buy yourself a train ticket and get yourself up into the Douro, even if only just to look out the window and spot all those places you have heard about and never seen. In my opinion that journey brings the whole thing into perspective far ore than a standard lodge tour ever can. You need to go as far as Pinhao to see anything meaningful which involves a change of train at Regua. You can find train timetables at http://www.cp.pt
That's interesting; I didn't think I'd have enough time to make it to Pinhão. The timetables suggest that it takes about 2.15 hours to get to Pinhão; is that about right?
DRT wrote:A few questions to help us give you best advice:
1. Are you going alone?
2. Where are you staying?
3. When do you arrive and leave? (times as well as dates!)
1. Yes.
2. As yet, undecided, but I was thinking of staying at the Castelo Santa Catarina, because it looks quite fun (I'm not a big fan of large hotels for short trips), is cheap and is quite close to a metro line which goes to V.N.G.
3. I'm arriving on the 23rd at 20.50 and leaving on the 25th on 21.15.
RonnieRoots wrote:In contrast of Derek, I would advise you to stay in Porto. The Douro really deserves a longer visit, and there's plenty to see in Porto for two days. It's a beautiful city, and we always enjoy just walking around, having a drink here and there, and enjoying the views.
Those were my initial thoughts and, for a weekend, a couple of lodges each day would give me a nice amount of time to look at the other sights in Porto.
RonnieRoots wrote:I would also suggest Ramos Pinto. A very nice look into the history of this port house. Another good one for history is Ferreira. The Taylor's restaurant is a great place for lunch, especially if the weather is good and you can sit outside. Of course, the wine and port list is good.

If you want a more special cellar tour, see if you can arrange an appointment with Niepoort. Just send them an e-mail with the request and you might get lucky.

The tour at Kopke used to be pretty good, and it was very nice to see a small, working port lodge in contrast to all the big touristy ones. But I believe they changed policy there after the Sogevinus takeover, and I don't know how it is now. Krohn is also a nice, small lodge to visit.
Again, many thanks. Much to think about :-)

I think I might try Taylor and Graham, because of their status and it wouldn't seem right not to visit on my first trip. Probably Ramos Pinto, too, based on your recommendations. I'd quite like to visit Niepoort, simply because I've drunk quite a lot of their wine recently but I suppose that depends on whether something is arrangeable.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by RonnieRoots »

If you're going to visit Graham's, did you see that they have a special site dedicated to their lodge?

An interesting quote from the site:
For true Port and Douro Doc table wine lovers, the recently inaugurated Graham’s Wine Bar provides an excellent opportunity to taste some of our greatest Ports and Douro DOC wines by the glass in a relaxing atmosphere. All tastings are organized by a trained oenologist who will be glad to offer information about relevant facts and insights into the wines you choose to taste.
An excellent initiative! :)
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Andy Velebil »

Grahams lodge is very nice and worth the trek up the hill. Gustavo (from Vinalogia) works there during the day, so ask for him.

I'd avoid the Douro and save that for another trip. There is a ton to see in Oporto/Gaia from a historical view. I enjoy walking around the city and looking at the old arcitecture.

Sandeman is always a lodge to visit, even if just for the free museum part of it and the old bottles across the room

Kopke has a new tasting room next to Noval's. Very nice room and a huge selections of Ports to buy at decent prices (for a store front).

Try to stay at a hotel within walking distance to the river front in Porto. Makes getting around much easier than a tram or bus and it's worth the extra couple dollars you'll spend.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Portman »

I guess I'll chime in because I've been to Porto and Pinhau four years running, though I still feel like a newbie.

It is true that many, many of the lodges have the same mass market tour, usually with a short movie or slide show, a look at many giant barrels of port, and an overview of port grapes and vinification, followed by a tasting with cheap white and ruby ports. For some reason, in August at least, it seems like the whole place is overrun with French people drinking white port. I actually like white port. It fits the summer climate in Portugal a lot better than the big brawny reds, but I digress.

I have noticed that there is an emerging trend in VndeGuia toward making higher end ports available for people like us. So this year you may find some new lodges that might offer vintage ports by the glass.

The Graham's lodge is very nice, and indeed now you can buy vintage port by the glass there. If you email them ahead of time and make a fuss about how the Symington ports are your favorite, they will give you a private tour with a good tasting at the wine bar at the end. Last summer they gave me a white port, a Six Grapes, a Dow LBV, a 10, 20 and 30 year tawny, a 94 Vesuvio, and an 85 Dows, all for free. I was feeling no pain when I left, and my guide was happy too because I left him a nice tip, which he told me not too many people do. All of those ports were available to buy by the glass at the wine bar.

The Taylor lodge is beautiful and has a nice restaurant, as others have noted here. You can also buy wines by the glass, but last summer the only vintage port they had available was a 95 Varghelas. Taylor is near Grahams.

I've been emailing the Fonseca people already to prepare for my visit this summer. Im making a fuss about how the Fonseca ports are my favorite and, well you get the idea. As I recall Fonseca is not open for regular tours, or at least has not been in the past.

I cant help you with accomodations as I always come down for the day and then drive back to Spain by nightfall. Thanks for the Vinho de Porto tip as I have not been there before. I've been to Vinologia and concur it is a great place to sip a wide variety of ports by the glass without being fleeced. They have a lot of small producers I had never heard of and it is a good place. It is also right next door to the fortress-like Vintage House and of course I would love to get inside there. Because I am a boorish American I knocked on the door but they smartly did not answer. Anyone been in that place? Can you imagine what must be in that cellar?

I personally think Pinhau is much more interesting than Porto, but with two days I agree it is not worth the time to go up there, especially without a car. Conceivably you could take the train, see the rugged countryside, and once in Pinhau have a fabulous lunch at the expensive but delicious Vintage House, then take the train back.

For everyone, when staying in Pinhau I love to stay at the Casa de Casal de Loivos, which is not too expensive and super charming. The 15th century house is just at the top of Dow's Quinta de Bomfim vineyard and commands a stunning view of the valley below. The owner, Miquel Sampoya, is an elderly Portuguese gentleman who is worth the trip alone. Be sure to pay the extra 25 Euro for the dinner, which is rustic but good. You sit around a big table with the other six hotel guests and enjoy the company of your fellow travellers, in an old house in a rugged and beautiful land. Finish your dinner with a port or two on the terrace looking out over the famous vineyards, and you have a memory for the ages.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by DRT »

I seem to be outnumbered on the Oporto v Douro thing but I think that comes fromthe fact that I am more interested in seeing open space than I am cities. I am sure there are lots of things to do in Oporto to fill two days but please don't spend all of your time in the lodges. I did that a few years ago and became very bored.

The Graham's lodge is notoriously generous. Even before they built their new trendy bar they would offer premium ports as standard. I remember sitting there at 10:30 one moring in 2004 or 5 with 7 glasses of [red] port in front of me. I can't really remember leaving :lol: When I went there in 2007 I had an appointment for a personalised tour and was served all of the vintage ports from the bar and in the end they refused to take my money 88) - Lunch on the Tayor veranda is a must if you have time.

Another thing to factor in is that lots of places will be closed on Sunday. Perhaps you should catch a train to...[maybe not :roll: :lol: ].
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by JacobH »

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions and particularly to Derek for some very generous extra assistance.

The bar at Graham's looks excellent and I think I will try to pay it a visit (even if I skip the tour), especially as they are open on a Sunday. I'm a bit curious about their prices, though:
The [url=http://daydream.no-ip.org/grahams_new_site/pdfs/MenuGrahamsWineBar_EN.pdf]Menu[/url] at Graham's Wine Bar wrote: Graham’s Vintage Port 2000 15 Euros
Dow’s Vintage Port 1985 10 Euros
Quinta do Vesuvio Vintage Port 1994 15 Euros
Graham’s Quinta dos Malvedos Vintage Port 1998 6 Euros
Dow’s Quinta do Bomfim Vintage Port 1998 5 Euros
Dow’s Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira Vintage Port 1999 10 Euros
Isn't €15 rather keen for a glass of Graham 2000, when the '85 Dow is €10? The €20 deal for a glass of 30 year old and 40+ year old tawny seems rather tempting, though.

I completely agree with Derek about not overdoing it on the lodges. Thankfully, there looks like lots to see otherwise. There's even a concert on a the Casa da Música.

Thanks again!
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Portman »

A day getting blottoed in Vila Nova, and a day trip to Pinhau (if the train schedules make sense) could be a great two day trip. If you had enough time in Pinhau you might be able to squeeze in a trip to a vineyard. Quinta de la Rosa is close to the train station, and Fonseca's Quinta do Panascal is a short taxi or hitchhike away. Croft's best vineyard (Quinta de Roeda) and Dow's Bomfim are also very close to the train station. Good luck to you.

Regarding the prices at Graham's, yes they are high. Vila Nova is not a place to find any deals. It was pretty shocking to me to find that port prices in Portugal are almost without exception higher than we can find them here in the States. I'm not sure why that is. If you do a little research you can find a store here or an online auction and pick up a top young vintage port for about $70. Im talking about something like a 2000 Fonseca or Taylor's. In Portugal, (and I dont just mean in the tourist trap of Vila Nova) the same bottle would routinely be 100 euro and sometimes much more.

A lot of you guys are from the UK. What do you pay there? Is the pound/Euro exchange rate hurting port prices yet?
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

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Portman wrote:If you do a little research you can find a store here or an online auction and pick up a top young vintage port for about $70. Im talking about something like a 2000 Fonseca or Taylor's. In Portugal, (and I dont just mean in the tourist trap of Vila Nova) the same bottle would routinely be 100 euro and sometimes much more.

A lot of you guys are from the UK. What do you pay there?
I just had a look for Fonseca 2000 on http://www.wine-searcher.com to test this and found the following lowest pre-tax prices:

USA: £31.97
UK: £39
Portugal: £41.89
Portman wrote:Is the pound/Euro exchange rate hurting port prices yet?
It only hurts us when we go to Europs to spend money. Most of the vintage port we are buying now has been in the UK for some time so the present currency situation probably isn't much of an influence. However, it may be for the new release of 2007 VP that will hit the market ater this year. It will be interesting to see how the comparitive prices stack up in Europe, USA and the UK.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

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Portman wrote:Regarding the prices at Graham's, yes they are high. Vila Nova is not a place to find any deals. It was pretty shocking to me to find that port prices in Portugal are almost without exception higher than we can find them here in the States. I'm not sure why that is. If you do a little research you can find a store here or an online auction and pick up a top young vintage port for about $70. Im talking about something like a 2000 Fonseca or Taylor's. In Portugal, (and I dont just mean in the tourist trap of Vila Nova) the same bottle would routinely be 100 euro and sometimes much more.

A lot of you guys are from the UK. What do you pay there? Is the pound/Euro exchange rate hurting port prices yet?
One other factor is what people drink. My impression is that in Portugal they drink quite a lot of aged Tawnies and Colheitas whereas in the UK we drink more of the ‟red” special categories: Ruby Reserves and (LB)VP. Not having proper access to winesearcher I can’t tell, but I wonder what the comparative prices of, say, a 40 year old tawny is between the UK, USA and Portugal?
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by JacobH »

Could I just ask one further question: I should be arriving at 2050 on Saturday (albeit on Ryan Air time) and am wondering where would be the best place to go for a drink that evening. As I’m not really sure how long it realistically takes to get in from the airport, nor what time the fancier places like Vinologia or the Porto Solar close, will I have time to head to one of those for a glass or two on arrival? Or would I be better looking for a bar in the centre or by the waterfront?
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Jacob

You can get from the airport into the city centre by metro in under an hour. Oporto is on Iberian time, which means that you will be still relatively early if you start looking for somewhere to eat and drink when you get to the City from the airport. Seriously, eating and drinking establishments often don't open until 9pm and don't start to get busy until 10pm and then stay busy for 2-3 hours.

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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

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AHB wrote:You can get from the airport into the city centre by metro in under an hour. Oporto is on Iberian time, which means that you will be still relatively early if you start looking for somewhere to eat and drink when you get to the City from the airport. Seriously, eating and drinking establishments often don't open until 9pm and don't start to get busy until 10pm and then stay busy for 2-3 hours.
That's good to hear. I just have memories of Barcelona where certain places would be open between 8 and 10 each evening and no later! Do you think the fancier bars that specialise in Port will open at that sort of time?
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Portman »

I'm sure you will be able to find something.

If you cant find a good answer here on the board, maybe ask the concierge at your hotel ahead of time. Or call the Portuguese travel and tourism office. Im sure they have one in London.

On my first trip to Portugal years ago the Portuguese tourism NY office answered all my questions and gave me great advice.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Glenn E. »

Vinologia opens at 7, as I recall, and remains open until the wee hours of the morning. I have personally been in Vinologia until after 11pm and there were people still in line outside when I left. It is one block up the hill from the river right in the middle of the Ribeira district, which is filled with restaurants that keep similar hours. You will have no trouble at all finding something to eat and drink at that time of night. :lol:

Much of this depends on where you are staying, but it shouldn't be a problem even if your hotel is 20-30 minutes away from the city center.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Portman »

And dont forget right across the street is the Vintage House. Maybe because you are British am I am not you have a better chance of gaining entrance.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Glenn E. »

Doubtful... the Factory House isn't open to the public that I recall from my trips. You need a member of the brotherhood in order to get inside, and the only one of those that I know is Roy.
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by JacobH »

Glenn E. wrote:Doubtful... the Factory House isn't open to the public that I recall from my trips. You need a member of the brotherhood in order to get inside, and the only one of those that I know is Roy.
I didn't think the Factory House had anything to do with the Confraria do Vinho do Porto; isn't a private members' club for British shippers?
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by JacobH »

Glenn E. wrote:Vinologia opens at 7, as I recall, and remains open until the wee hours of the morning. I have personally been in Vinologia until after 11pm and there were people still in line outside when I left. It is one block up the hill from the river right in the middle of the Ribeira district, which is filled with restaurants that keep similar hours. You will have no trouble at all finding something to eat and drink at that time of night. :lol:

Much of this depends on where you are staying, but it shouldn't be a problem even if your hotel is 20-30 minutes away from the city center.
That all sounds good. I didn't realise that there would be a queue of people to get into Vinologia, though. Do you think it's worth dropping them a line try to beat it?
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Re: Oporto (another ‟what to see” thread)

Post by Glenn E. »

The line at Vinologia varies from non-existent (which is the normal state of affairs) to 2-3 groups of people deep on a really busy Friday or Saturday night, and as far as I know they don't take reservations unless you have some sort of special relationship with them. They do have a small bar with barstools, so a single person could probably get in just about any time. It's when you and 3-4 of your friends show up and need a table during prime time that you sometimes have to wait because the place is really quite small.

As far as the Factory House goes... I'm probably mixing my memberships. I was under the impression that Roy was able to get into the Factory House, but it's entirely possible that in the story I'm thinking of he was with someone else who was a member.
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