VP Declarations

[DRT]

I am currently researching all VP declarations with a view to providing JDAW with a list from which he can generate one or more whizzy things. I currently have 1421 decalred VPs on my list from 1815 to 2006. I suspect I have missed some.

Could I please ask those who are organised enough to keep TN's and cellar lists to send me a list of the VPs they have either owned or tasted so that I can compare their list with my own and possibly fill some of the gaps. I only need to know the shipper and the year, not how many you own or how much you paid or what it tasted like. Please only supply data relating to VP & SQVP, not any other style of Port or port.

Thanks
Derek

[JacobH]

I am currently researching all VP declarations with a view to providing JDAW with a list from which he can generate one or more whizzy things. I currently have 1421 decalred VPs on my list from 1815 to 2006. I suspect I have missed some.

Could I please ask those who are organised enough to keep TN's and cellar lists to send me a list of the VPs they have either owned or tasted so that I can compare their list with my own and possibly fill some of the gaps. I only need to know the shipper and the year, not how many you own or how much you paid or what it tasted like. Please only supply data relating to VP & SQVP, not any other style of Port or port.

Thanks
Derek

Unfortunately, my drinking is not exotic enough to add much. That said, I note that Mayson mentions vintages of 1765, 1775, 1790 (Sandeman’s first) and 1797 (although the Waterloo vintage is described as the first one for which there is any certainty)...

[DRT]

Thanks, Jacob. I will have a look at Suckling when I get home.

My data currently contains 1453 Vintage Ports from 1812 to 2006. I have recorded a confirmed reliable source against 829 of these. 379 of the wines listed are pre-WWII - 199 of which are pre-1900

Would anyone, apart from JDAW, care to take a guess at the name of the second oldest wine in the current list?

[ajfeather]

I don't have much history to add I am afraid.

I will guess Taylors...

[Andy Velebil]

kopke

[Glenn E.]

Since Andy took Kopke, I'll guess Croft.

[DRT]

Come on guys, shipper and vintage please

[Alex Bridgeman]

Royal Oporto 1815 or perhaps Ferreira 1815?

[DRT]

1815 is correct. No one has mentioned the correct shipper yet.

[Alex Bridgeman]

1815 is correct. No one has mentioned the correct shipper yet.

Why not? Both Royal Oporto and Ferreira 1815 appear on the tasting notes index? I know, 'cos I was lucky enough to be the one that put them there!

[Alex Bridgeman]

Did you pick up the conversation earlier in 2008 on FTLOP where someone posted a link to an auction in Denmark which was selling a bottle of 1790 vintage port?

Of course, vintage port in the modern sense of the definition (ie bottled 2-3 years from the vintage) is a relatively modern phenomenon. You say that you only want details of VP, but who knows when the 1815 Ferreira was really bottled...

[DRT]

1815 is correct. No one has mentioned the correct shipper yet.

Why not?

Because I didn't phrase the question properly.

It should have read "which wine appears on the declarations list immediately below the name of the shipper who produced the earliest vintage port on the list" So it is an 1815 with a shipper whose name begins with a letter between F and R.

Derek

[ajfeather]

I will guess again then, Roriz?

[Andy Velebil]

I will guess again then, Roriz?

I would have to concur with Roriz. Other than that it could have been what is now known as Quarles Harris, although it was known as Harris and ??? back then IIRC.

But no one really knows exactly when Port as we know it today actually came about. Yes there was Port from the 1600's but who know what was really in it and how it was made. As Derek mentioned 1815 is generally regarded as the first "known", as we know it today, Vintage Port. But lets be honest here, who really knows how it was made even then. I've read accounts of many things used to bolster up the product, including adding sugar, Elderberries, cherries, and other things. I just read a portion of a book written in 1872 that details the production of Port in these times and it's quite the eye opener. In reality it probably wasn't until the late 1800s that VP as we know it today became more standardized.

[DRT]

It is Quinta do Vesuvio 1815 as described by Broadbent. But this raises a question: This, and the Ferreira 1815 mentioned in the same book were not bottled as VP as we know it today. It is likely that many of the older vintages refered to by Broadbent and others are in fact Colheita. Should I be including them in the list?

Second question: exactly when did the rule come in to force that VP must be bottled by the end of the 3rd year?

[JacobH]

It is Quinta do Vesuvio 1815 as described by Broadbent. But this raises a question: This, and the Ferreira 1815 mentioned in the same book were not bottled as VP as we know it today. It is likely that many of the older vintages refered to by Broadbent and others are in fact Colheita. Should I be including them in the list?

I wonder whether we can know exactly what the character of many of these early VPs would have been: can we say for certain that they were matured in barrels small enough for them to develop a tawny characteristic? I wonder if they were more similar to modern LBVs? Apologies for the second Mayson quote in the same thread, but this seems pertinent:

‟Contemporary advertisements from Christie’s indicate the 1820 ports were bottled three and five years after the vintage, and TG Shaw describes a wine from the same year as having ‘plenty of crust and plenty of colour’”.

That says, he goes on to suggest that there was a certain amount of racking involved in early VP production, which would encourage oxidisation!

[DRT]

Six days ago...

I am currently researching all VP declarations with a view to providing JDAW with a list from which he can generate one or more whizzy things. I currently have 1421 decalred VPs on my list from 1815 to 2006.

I now have 1753 and the date range has widened by 1 year

[Axel P]

Derek,

thanks for all your work. And Julian, too, of course. How do you spread the list?

Axel

[DRT]

How do you spread the list?

We haven't worked that bit out yet

[jdaw1]

I have some plans, but need to see the shape of the data before committing myself.

[DRT]

I have some plans, but need to see the shape of the data before committing myself.

It's the shape of an elephant. Does that help?

[jdaw1]

No.

How many names cover the range 1900 to present?
How many 1800 to present?
How many stop before, say, 1950? 1900?

Don’t answer now. Wait until the data is done, or almost so, and then I’ll play.

[Andy Velebil]

I have some plans, but need to see the shape of the data before committing myself.

It's the shape of an elephant. Does that help?

Yes, thats fine as long as it's not the shape of a pig at a Quinta then all is well

[DRT]

I found something interesting this evening when updating the port declarations database:

Ernest Cockburn lists Taylor 1872 with a footnote which reads "Quinta Roeda only" - further reading unearthed the fact that Croft purchased the quinta from Taylor, Fladgate & Yeatman in 1875. Whether or not these two things are linked is not known.

[DRT]

The Taylor 1880 has the same footnote, suggesting that TF&Y were purchasing the grapes or juice from Roeda after the sale of the quinta.