1925 Taylor Fladgate & Yeatman Vargellas port

[Vargellas]

Thank you all for your your thoughts and expertise! I will forward along information as I receive it.

Is there a company/way to authenticate the bottle?

Fun trying to solve this mystery!

[Andy Velebil]

Thank you all for your your thoughts and expertise! I will forward along information as I receive it.

Is there a company/way to authenticate the bottle?

Fun trying to solve this mystery!

Some wine companies will allow you to mail them in to be examined. However, if it is deemed improper (fake, not authorized to be released outside the company, etc) they won’t return it. You’d have to contact The Fladgate Partnership and ask.

[Vargellas]

Thank you!

[Alex Bridgeman]

Joe,

What are you hoping to do with the bottle?

Given the significant peculiarities that have been discussed above, it’s value at auction is probably quite low.

However, you have generated lots of interest here to the extent (I suspect) that if you wanted to try a range of Ports of similar age you could probably use your bottle to get a seat at one of our tasting which had a theme of, say, Pre-War Ports.

[mcoulson]

However, you have generated lots of interest here to the extent (I suspect) that if you wanted to try a range of Ports of similar age you could probably use your bottle to get a seat at one of our tasting which had a theme of, say, Pre-War Ports.

Great suggestion Alex .... I'd be up for a seat if it goes this way along with my bottle of Gonzalez Byass '32

[Vargellas]

For me the next step would be to find the value of the bottle, I am certainly open to having a seat at a tasting. I am more of a collector of wine, the best part of the wine collecting and tasting is opening a bottle with friends, like minded people!

Again thank you all for your input and passion!!!!!!!!!

Still waiting on a response from Taylor Fladgate.

[uncle tom]

That does not appear to be the remnants of a Selo. Rather it appears to be an old tax stamp.

It also looks like the capsule has already been cut around the base of the t-cork.

Better pics are needed.

I would love this to be a genuine original bottle - as a collector, 1925 is one of my missing vintages.

But the apparent break in the foil and the non-standard selo is ringing alarm bells.

From time to time crooks refill old bottles and try to pass them off as original. I'd need to know the history of this bottle and the origins of the duty stamp - or whatever it is - before accepting it as genuine.

[DRT]

If someone made this as a fake bottle of Vintage Port they are the worst faker in history.

Those white capsules and t-corks were in use in the mid-war period. I suspect this is non-VP Port from the 1925 vintage, perhaps bottled before the official selo we know today was launched.

[winesecretary]

I think the ‘it might be genuine because no-one would fake something this badly’ theory is a dangerous one. Ultimately it starts from the premise that one wants it to be genuine and then one creates a theory of history around it. It’s almost invariably the case that one fools oneself. Over the past 30 years I have seen this trip up even very knowledgeable collectors and dealers in the world of silver and of madeira wine. I even belonged to a dining club for 20 years which met to look at ‘debatable’ examples of both. It should be possible to work out whether or not this is genuine from first principles.

We know (it’s in Julian’s book) 1925 Vargellas was made.

Is it possible that any of it was bottled under stopper corks? Adrian B’s team will be able to answer that definitively, but I would have thought it unlikely.

Even if so, and even assuming the capsule stopper and tax stamp to be genuine and undamaged, about which there is a lively debate above, that still doesn’t mean that the somewhat rudimentary paper label (which is the only clue to the contents as opposed to the producer) is contemporaneous or correct. My view is that the sophistication of the stopper (which must mean it was bottled by Taylor’s rather than in England) is at odds with the simplicity of the label.

[Vargellas]

I am impatiently waiting to hear back from Taylor Fladgate, I have emailed from their site as well as FB messenger with pictures etc...

[Andy Velebil]

I tend to approach very old bottles now with the “it’s fake until proven real” mentality. I see absolutely nothing at all that leads me to believe this is fake.

As I mentioned before, the label appears to be a type used in-house. think current Sym bottles pulled from stocks without labels but they need one to identify it. So they slap a generic label that has the computer printer typed of what contents it is. You’ve probably all seen pics online of those. This label is consistent with that, just a diff company and from a long time ago.

[DRT]

The white capped T-cork and white capsule remind me of a Fonseca from the 1930's that some of us tasted at the RAF Club many years ago. I think it might have been an early example of LBV.

If someone made this as a fake bottle of Vintage Port they are the worst faker in history.

Those white capsules and t-corks were in use in the mid-war period. I suspect this is non-VP Port from the 1925 vintage, perhaps bottled before the official selo we know today was launched.

I think the ‘it might be genuine because no-one would fake something this badly’ theory is a dangerous one. Ultimately it starts from the premise that one wants it to be genuine and then one creates a theory of history around it. It’s almost invariably the case that one fools oneself.

I neglected to mention that the person who brought the white t-stoppered 1930's Fonseca to the tasting at the RAF Club was Adrian Bridge. I'm not entirely convinced I am fooling myself.

[DRT]

I see absolutely nothing at all that leads me to believe this is fake.

I completely agree.

[MigSU]

I neglected to mention that the person who brought the white t-stoppered 1930's Fonseca to the tasting at the RAF Club was Adrian Bridge. I'm not entirely convinced I am fooling myself.

Oof.

[DRT]

Following some research and with help from Andy Velebil I can confirm that the tasting referred to above was Fonseca Guimaraens, and some Fonseca, Mon 04 April 2011 and the bottle with the white t-stopper was a Fonseca Guimaraens 1933.

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[Andy Velebil]

And so there is no confusion. The ‘33 has a modern Selo and new label because Adrian Bridge pulled it from the company cellar, had the shiner bottle cleaned, new capsule and label applied specifically for that tasting. I still retain the t-cork in my possession.

[DRT]

And so there is no confusion. The ‘33 has a modern Selo and new label because Adrian Bridge pulled it from the company cellar, had the shiner bottle cleaned, new capsule and label applied specifically for that tasting. I still retain the t-cork in my possession.

Correct. From memory, Adrian very kindly arranged for a dozen or so bottles from that line-up to be shipped from the company cellar in Vila Nova de Gaia to the tasting via their UK distributor Mentzendorff, hence the labels and selos.

[winesecretary]

With the greatest of respect, Dave and Andy, you are rather proving my point. From your deep knowledge you are creating a story/rationale in which it is possible for the contents of this bottle to be 1925 Vargellas. I still think that’s unlikely.

- I am not aware of a single documented pre war example of a T-Stoppered Taylor Vintage or Single Quinta port.

- nor are there any on VPID.

- that a completely separate (then and until 1949) port house, Fonseca, bottled some single quinta port before the war with T stoppers shows no more than it is theoretically possible for such port to exist with such stoppers.

- in these circumstances I argue that the likelihood remains this is a 1930s or later bottling (note, in passing, the much greater sophistication of the stopper in the Taylor bottle than the Fonseca example, despite the presumably rather earlier date) of something from Taylor; with a later- applied paper label to the bottle giving it a romantic history.

By saying these things I cast no aspersions on the current owner of the bottle who has received it and asked our advice about it in good faith.

But anyway, Adrian B has been applied to for comment so I await that elucidation.

[DRT]

The white capped T-cork and white capsule remind me of a Fonseca from the 1930's that some of us tasted at the RAF Club many years ago.

I don't think I have made any claim about the 1925 other than to say it reminded me of a similar bottle from the 1930's.

Dave

[winesecretary]

I take your point

[Andy Velebil]

With the greatest of respect, Dave and Andy, you are rather proving my point. From your deep knowledge you are creating a story/rationale in which it is possible for the contents of this bottle to be 1925 Vargellas. I still think that’s unlikely.

- I am not aware of a single documented pre war example of a T-Stoppered Taylor Vintage or Single Quinta port.

- nor are there any on VPID.

- that a completely separate (then and until 1949) port house, Fonseca, bottled some single quinta port before the war with T stoppers shows no more than it is theoretically possible for such port to exist with such stoppers.

- in these circumstances I argue that the likelihood remains this is a 1930s or later bottling (note, in passing, the much greater sophistication of the stopper in the Taylor bottle than the Fonseca example, despite the presumably rather earlier date) of something from Taylor; with a later- applied paper label to the bottle giving it a romantic history.

By saying these things I cast no aspersions on the current owner of the bottle who has received it and asked our advice about it in good faith.

But anyway, Adrian B has been applied to for comment so I await that elucidation.

We are not creating a story/rationale. It is you that has asserted its contents are fake with no factual basis other than your misguided thoughts.

Just because you are not aware of what was done almost 100 yrs ago doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

It remains very possible this was later bottled. That was very common as there was no regulation until after WW2 on when one had to bottle VP. If the contents are indeed a VP.

[winesecretary]

There are zero bottles of pre-war Taylor’s vintage or single quinta port with a stopper cork known to anyone who has deigned to look at this thread. I argue that one can come to the preliminary conclusion, develop a theory, make an inference, or hold a suspicion, by virtue of the absence of known data points from that era, that the bottle is not what it professes to be. It is, because I am making an inference from an absence of data not the presence of data, quite possible that I am wrong.

[Andy Velebil]

There are zero bottles of pre-war Taylor’s vintage or single quinta port with a stopper cork known to anyone who has deigned to look at this thread. I argue that one can come to the preliminary conclusion, develop a theory, make an inference, or hold a suspicion, by virtue of the absence of known data points from that era, that the bottle is not what it professes to be. It is, because I am making an inference from an absence of data not the presence of data, quite possible that I am wrong.

Having been in the private TFP company cellar that is not open to the public, I can assure you there are many odd and old bottles of things you wouldn't see anywhere else or know exists. Those of us who've been historians of our favorite beverage have long ago learned not to assume something doesn't exists because we've never seen it. I suggest you do the same.

[winesecretary]

Andy, let’s leave it. We’re not going to agree on this.

[Vargellas]

No word yet from Taylor Fladgate! I did speak to the buyer at Martignetti, he gave me some background on the bottle. Fredrick said only Taylor could authenticate the bottle. I will keep reaching out.