Apostrophe crimes

Talk about anything but keep it polite and reasonably clean.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23613
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by jdaw1 »

I’m genuinely conflicted.

It is not that each of the dozen bottles was sold at £62 (so it wasn’t £744 for the lot), it was the dozen that was sold at £62. That points to “another dozen was sold at £62.”

But let’s vary it. Obviously, if it were 11 bottles, then “another eleven bottles were sold at £57.” Perhaps the dozen should be consistent with that? I think this agrees with Flash.

Indeed, I think my being conflicted agrees with Phil.
User avatar
djewesbury
Graham’s 1970
Posts: 8165
Joined: 20:01 Mon 31 Dec 2012
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by djewesbury »

Style guides and books of usage are generally clear on this point. A dozen (eggs, or bottles) is a singular unit; the collective noun takes the verb, not the individual items. If a dozen people are meeting you for a port tasting, they are plural; I think this is to with the non-identical nature of the items being considered (yes, sure, please do go ahead and argue that point).
Daniel J.
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Glenn E. »

flash_uk wrote:I don't think it does come down to whether dozen is treated as a singular or plural unit.
You are correct, but not for the reason you think.

You are correct because the unit in question is not "dozen" but "another" which is singular.
Glenn Elliott
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote:But let’s vary it. Obviously, if it were 11 bottles, then “another eleven bottles were sold at £57.”
"Another" implies "set of" in the sentence - "another (set of) eleven bottles was sold at £57."

Leaving "another" out yields "eleven bottles were sold at £57," which to me implies that they could have been sold individually, but were instead sold together (but not as a deliberate unit).
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Graham’s 1948
Posts: 14880
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

I think it comes down to the implied meaning that comes from the form of the verb.

"1 dozen bottles was sold" implies a single lot of 12 bottles. "1 dozen bottles were sold" implies a number of lots of bottles which together added to 12 bottles.

Given that we have been told this was a single lot of 12 bottles I vote for "1 dozen bottles was sold" - it is the dozen that was sold, not the 12 individual bottles. The dozen was indivisible and therefore is a singular item.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23613
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by jdaw1 »

jdaw1 wrote:• On 7 November 1974 another dozen were sold at £62.
• On 7 November 1974 another dozen was sold at £62.
AHB wrote:Given that we have been told this was a single lot of 12 bottles I vote for "1 dozen bottles was sold" - it is the dozen that was sold, not the 12 individual bottles. The dozen was indivisible and therefore is a singular item.
Would the same one-lot reasoning apply if “dozen” were replaced with “eleven”, or with “11”?
User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Graham’s 1948
Posts: 14880
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

jdaw1 wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:• On 7 November 1974 another dozen were sold at £62.
• On 7 November 1974 another dozen was sold at £62.
AHB wrote:Given that we have been told this was a single lot of 12 bottles I vote for "1 dozen bottles was sold" - it is the dozen that was sold, not the 12 individual bottles. The dozen was indivisible and therefore is a singular item.
Would the same one-lot reasoning apply if “dozen” were replaced with “eleven”, or with “11”?
If you spoke of "11 bottles" then the answer is no, that would be "Another 11 bottles were sold".

If you spoke of it as a lot of 11 bottles then you would be referring to a singular unit, hence "Another lot of 11 bottles was sold"
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Glenn E. »

AHB wrote:"Another 11 bottles were sold".
I still think you're focusing on the wrong word. Replacing "dozen" with "11 bottles" doesn't matter. (Or rather, doing so makes the use of "another" improper.)

"Another"... "an other"... means "one more".

"One more [dozen | 11 bottles] were sold" makes no sense. It is grammatically incorrect for "another" to be plural. If you want to use 11 bottles, then you change the sentence to "11 more bottles were sold."

Ergo, another dozen was sold at £62.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4081
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by flash_uk »

I still don't think it matters if the dozen were the same bottles or different bottles. They were bottles, plural, and so the bottles "were" sold, or the dozen bottles "were" sold, or the dozen "were" sold. If it was one lot of a dozen bottles, then I'd say it was one lot of a dozen bottles "were" sold. If I didn't specify what was in the lot, then it would be just one lot was sold, as in "there were two lots of a dozen F63 for sale, one lot was sold for £10, the other lot was sold for £11."

Can I test a similar phrase. What about a pair of shoes? I think it is a pair of shoes were sold.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Glenn E. »

flash_uk wrote:Can I test a similar phrase. What about a pair of shoes? I think it is a pair of shoes were sold.
What is the subject of the sentence? A pair, not shoes.

A pair of shoes was sold.

"Of shoes" is a descriptive clause; the verb must agree with the subject.

Back to the original question, "another" requires a singular object.

Another object was sold.
Another objects were sold.

Object is the subject, and it must agree with the verb. However, for the use of "another" in the sentence to be correct the subject must be singular.

"Another dozen were sold" requires that "another" and "dozen" agree, and also that "dozen" and "were" agree. But for that to be true, "dozen" must be both singular and plural in its usage in the sentence which cannot be true. So take your pick; either "another" does not agree with "dozen" or "dozen" does not agree with "were," and in either case the sentence is grammatically incorrect.

Ergo, another dozen was sold at £62.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4081
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by flash_uk »

I need a drink :)
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4081
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by flash_uk »

Glenn E. wrote: What is the subject of the sentence? A pair, not shoes.

A pair of shoes was sold.

"Of shoes" is a descriptive clause; the verb must agree with the subject
Am with you that the verb must agree with the subject, which in this case is a pair, but a pair can be considered a singular noun or a plural noun depending on what it is a pair of. A pair of knickers is singular. Earrings, shoes, socks can be singular or plural. So I believe both a pair of shoes was sold and a pair of shoes were sold are both correct. As such, given that a dozen refers to a number of discrete items, I would posit that both a dozen bottles were sold and a dozen bottles was sold could both be correct.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Glenn E. »

I'd have to see examples, because as far as I know a pair is always singular.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4081
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by flash_uk »

Glenn E. wrote:I'd have to see examples, because as far as I know a pair is always singular.
This website has a few examples.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Glenn E. »

flash_uk wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:I'd have to see examples, because as far as I know a pair is always singular.
This website has a few examples.
Interesting. I agree with the concept of notional agreement, but even the examples given appear wrong to me. A pair is a singular object. If you have two unrelated objects, you refer to them as "two objects" not "a pair of objects."

Their "shoes" example demonstrates it perfectly for me. Their attempted notional use of "a pair of shoes" looks and sounds wrong... because despite the concept being valid, it doesn't apply (to me) to a pair of shoes.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4081
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by flash_uk »

I thought the distinction about a pair was more about discrete items rather than a whole item. It is not possible to separate one knicker from a pair of knickers. It is possible to separate one sock from a pair of socks. Socks could also be a matching pair of socks or an odd pair of socks.
LGTrotter
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3707
Joined: 17:45 Fri 19 Oct 2012
Location: Somerset, UK

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by LGTrotter »

flash_uk wrote:I thought the distinction about a pair was more about discrete items rather than a whole item. It is not possible to separate one knicker from a pair of knickers. It is possible to separate one sock from a pair of socks.
I remember my wife calling for help saying; "I'm stuck, I've got two legs in one knicker".
User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15779
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by DRT »

LGTrotter wrote:
flash_uk wrote:I thought the distinction about a pair was more about discrete items rather than a whole item. It is not possible to separate one knicker from a pair of knickers. It is possible to separate one sock from a pair of socks.
I remember my wife calling for help saying; "I'm stuck, I've got two legs in one knicker".
[like]

Please can we end this debate here? Please?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23613
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by jdaw1 »

It was not the direction in which the conversation had been originally pointed.
Glenn E.
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4174
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Glenn E. »

jdaw1 wrote:It was not the direction in which the conversation had been originally pointed.
To wit, despite the educational link, I still claim that the use of "another" requires a singular object. Regardless of whether or not dozen, or pair, or whatever, can be plural it must be singular in this usage.
Glenn Elliott
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23613
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by jdaw1 »

[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=99246#p99246]Here[/url] Doggett wrote:I have a Cockburn and a Fonseca G...one of which I need for my parents golden wedding anniversary and the other for the tasting. Either way round is ok.
Two errors!
User avatar
flash_uk
Graham’s 1977
Posts: 4081
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by flash_uk »

This book review considers a book which takes aim at grammar pedantry, suggesting the "rules" cited are often without substance or authority. Thoughts anyone?
User avatar
Doggett
Morgan 1991
Posts: 1188
Joined: 17:40 Sun 20 Sep 2015
Location: Weymouth
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by Doggett »

jdaw1 wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=99246#p99246]Here[/url] Doggett wrote:I have a Cockburn and a Fonseca G...one of which I need for my parents golden wedding anniversary and the other for the tasting. Either way round is ok.
Two errors!
Shame on me for rushing and missing their ownership of their anniversary... And further shame for depriving 'round' of an additional 'a'. I shall be in the stocks in Sanderstead village at lunchtime with a basket of rotten fruit, for those that wish to administer the appropriate punishment. :(
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23613
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by jdaw1 »

The most important error was the idea that bottles of Port could be for any purpose other than sharing with us. :VegetableStar:
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 23613
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Post by jdaw1 »

Post Reply