The Helix Cork

[DRT]

Diam’s manufacturer estimates that Diam P1 is 400 times less permeable than a very good natural cork. They estimate a screwcap is 2600 times less permeable than a very good natural cork.

[g-man]

pretty sure that a proper cork is suppose to be airtight

Did the inventor of natural cork tell you that?

It just isn't.

I don't recall arguing whether or not natural cork could be airtight
only that a proper cork enclosure should be airtight.

But it isn't. A "proper cork enclosure" is made from natural cork. It isn't airtight. Is there another type of cork that we don't know about?

No, natural just means there's alot more variability.

I'm searching for the research paper that was published last year or so, but the best corks have a lower permeability then screw caps.

[mannye]

I've always thought that corks let some (relative term) air through.

Here's an article about a UC Davis study on corks vs screwcaps and the flavor of wine.

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news ... o?id=10339

[g-man]

I've always thought that corks let some (relative term) air through.

Here's an article about a UC Davis study on corks vs screwcaps and the flavor of wine.

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news ... o?id=10339

thanks for the article, would be interesting to see the results.

[RonnieRoots]

Seems to me that this is Amorim's attempt to compete with screwcap, but in my view that battle is already lost. There is general acceptance of screwcap, even for premium wines, so I think it will be very difficult for the cork industry to win back that lost ground. If they had introduced this product 5 years ago, they would have had a better chance. I do see one potentially interesting market for this type of closure though: Prosecco.

[RAYC]

Seems to me that this is Amorim's attempt to compete with screwcap, but in my view that battle is already lost. There is general acceptance of screwcap, even for premium wines, so I think it will be very difficult for the cork industry to win back that lost ground. If they had introduced this product 5 years ago, they would have had a better chance. I do see one potentially interesting market for this type of closure though: Prosecco.

I'm not sure i agree that this is an attempt to take on the screwcap. After all, the principle arguments for screwcap as i understand them (much reduced chances of TCA, tighter seal for freshness) are no better addressed by this than by traditional corks. To me this seems like a well dressed t-stopper aiming for a bit of natural cork market share on the basis of convenience. The requirement for bespoke bottles seems to me to be a bit of a drawback - at least for any winery that goes for a distinctive bottle "look" - but plenty use generic bottles.

Even if there is general acceptance of screw-cap, all the articles i've browsed over the years seem to indicate an ongoing preference for cork - in particular for high end (i.e. £10+) wines in US, UK and China. But i'll admit i haven't paid a huge amount of attention. From a personal perspective, i'd take some convincing before i purchased VP from screw cap....

[Andy Velebil]

From the last data I've seen, and it may have changed since, there was no significant difference in flawed bottles of either. Both have draw backs, corks with TCA, and screw caps with oxidation from a not so perfect seal (and highly dependent on what type of membrane is used as a seal in the screw cap. AS IIRC one or two older membranes had a very high rate of o2 transfer and/or impart some off flavors).

So what started as a way to eliminate TCA issues, really ended up with its own set of equally damaging issues as well.

Personally, I don't mind screw caps on non-aging type wines. A good Vinho Verde is perfect under screw cap. I can have a glass or two, cap it back, toss it in the fridge and have more the next day without the slight effervescence going away.

[jdaw1]

Seems to me that this is Amorim's attempt to compete with screwcap, but in my view that battle is already lost. There is general acceptance of screwcap, even for premium wines, so I think it will be very difficult for the cork industry to win back that lost ground.

I'm not sure i agree that this is an attempt to take on the screwcap. After all, the principle arguments for screwcap as i understand them (much reduced chances of TCA, tighter seal for freshness) are no better addressed by this than by traditional corks. To me this seems like a well dressed t-stopper aiming for a bit of natural cork market share on the basis of convenience.

cork-glass wine packaging solution for the popular premium, fast turnaround still wine segment. ! In addition, consumers also appreciated retaining the festive ‘pop’ associated with opening a bottle of wine.

Screw cap + cork sound, in the popular premium market: that’s a screw cap fight.

As for the bottles, it depends on their patents. If they have patented thoroughly, such that O-I has and exercises a monopoly on this type of bottle, wineries won’t want their line adjusted, and it will flop. If O-I have the wit to undertake to license it to all, for a fixed ¼¢ per bottle, then wineries might take the punt.

[RAYC]

Seems to me that this is Amorim's attempt to compete with screwcap, but in my view that battle is already lost. There is general acceptance of screwcap, even for premium wines, so I think it will be very difficult for the cork industry to win back that lost ground.

I'm not sure i agree that this is an attempt to take on the screwcap. After all, the principle arguments for screwcap as i understand them (much reduced chances of TCA, tighter seal for freshness) are no better addressed by this than by traditional corks. To me this seems like a well dressed t-stopper aiming for a bit of natural cork market share on the basis of convenience.

cork-glass wine packaging solution for the popular premium, fast turnaround still wine segment. ! In addition, consumers also appreciated retaining the festive ‘pop’ associated with opening a bottle of wine.

Screw cap + cork sound, in the popular premium market: that’s a screw cap fight.

That's a nice soundbite, but i still question the reasoning behind it.

On the whole, and at least as far as i am aware, the reason for wine-makers turning away from cork in not because of the convenience of a screw cap - it is because of the problems and variability experienced with corks. Why would these people look at cork again with fresh eyes just because it is a "screw cork"? I think it far more likely that someone who currently bottles under cork could switch to this type of product on the basis of "convenience".

[DRT]

Why would these people look at cork again with fresh eyes just because it is a "screw cork"? I think it far more likely that someone who currently bottles under cork could switch to this type of product on the basis of "convenience".

Rob, I think that's the point many here are trying to make. I don't think this is about winning back the parts of the market that have already gone over to screw caps, it is more likely to be an attempt to grab a slice of the part of the market that is currently using driven corks that might jump ship in the future. The screw cap boys have secured their current market but will be attacking the cork market for more - this is an attempt to stem the flow. Isn't that a screw cap fight?

[RAYC]

Why would these people look at cork again with fresh eyes just because it is a "screw cork"? I think it far more likely that someone who currently bottles under cork could switch to this type of product on the basis of "convenience".

Rob, I think that's the point many here are trying to make. I don't think this is about winning back the parts of the market that have already gone over to screw caps, it is more likely to be an attempt to grab a slice of the part of the market that is currently using driven corks that might jump ship in the future. The screw cap boys have secured their current market but will be attacking the cork market for more - this is an attempt to stem the flow. Isn't that a screw cap fight?

Again, if my understanding is correct that - on the whole - customers in key markets genuinely still prefer cork (even if there is high "acceptance" of screw cap), i fail to see how this product "stems the flow" when the main reason that producers switch to screw caps is related to issues with cork quality/consistency rather than the convenience of the "screw" motion. The Helix Cork seems to me like an effort by Amorim (world's largest cork producer?) to get an even bigger share of the cork market. Nothing i've seen says to me that this is a "screw cap fight' (unless i'm wrong on the reasons that producers switch to screw cap and it is about convenience rather than guaranteeing freshness / avoiding TCA).


Put it another way - what about the Helix Cork would tempt back those who have changed to screw cap, or persuade those who are considering the change to stay?

[DRT]

Put it another way - what about the Helix Cork would tempt back those who have changed to screw cap, or persuade those who are considering the change to stay?

Nothing, because it's a really crap idea.

I'm not sure that TCA is what drives producers towards screw caps any more. It might have been the reason at the beginning but it is now more likely to be because of convenience and market acceptance/expectation. My mum buys £4-5 wine and hates corks because they are less convenient. I don't think she would ever spot a corked wine. She is by no means alone.

[Glenn E.]

She is by no means alone.

Unquestionably not.