Obscure Quintas...

[JacobH]

In addition to the modern map of Port producing Quintas, I am trying to put together a similar project with historic Quintas shown on Forrester’s map of 1844, so we can get a sense of how the landscape of the Douro has (and has not changed) over the last 170 years.

Many Quintas Forrester marked still exist, or were absorbed into ones which still exist. However, the following seem not to be mentioned in any of the reference books I own, nor are mentioned online. I was wondering if anyone could help me with any information about them?

Quinta da Baleira; on the ‟South” side of the Douro by the Valeira dam (roughly here). It is marked as next to Quinta do Pelão which was absorbed into Quinta do Castelinho in 1848, so I wonder if was also merged, but I can’t find any references to it.

Quinta de São Martinho e Mileu; on the South side of the Douro, opposite Quinta do Zimbro (roughly here). Many Quintas on the South bank along this stretch were merged with Quinta dos Aciprestes (now owned by Royal Oporto and used for table-wine) but I can’t find any references to this Quinta being included.

Quinta do Clerigo; on the North side of the Douro, perhaps 3km West of Malvedos (where the bend in the river starts) or 1km East of São Mamede de Tua station (roughly here). I can’t find any references to any modern Quintas in this stretch of river.

Quinta do Dr. de Cottas; similar place to Clerigo. About 1km away from the bank of the river on the North side, where São Mamede de Tua is located (roughly here). A tasting in March this year included wines from a Quinta das Cottas in the Cima Corgo, made by Pedro Carmo which I wonder if this is the same place.

[JacobH]

I’ve added some links to their approximate location on Google maps. Please follow the green arrows and not the pink markers which are located on the nearest road!

[Christian]

Hi Jacob - I must say I really like your idea! Port wine is so much about history - and if there is anything I can do, then I'm more than glad to help you. In the book "O Douro" by Manuel Monteiro I found some references for you.
Quinta da Baleira - in 1911 it belonged to Julio Antonio Teixeira da Costa Montenegro. There is even a picture in my book, however - it's not very good, and it's difficult to spot the Quinta.
I don't see the Quinta do S. Martinho e Mileu mentioned... However, there existed in 1911 a Quinta do Mileu, which belonged to the Visconde de S.Joao de Pesqueira. This Quinta had a small chapel attached. There is a beautiful photo in my book - but I somehow haven't yet managed to connect my scanner to my computer... so I can't show it to you at the moment... sorry...
I didn't find the Quinta do Dr. de Cottas: I didn't find a Quinta de Cottas... But I found a train-station "Estacao de Cottas". Next to it is a Quinta da Romeinceira (not identical to the near-by Quinta da Romaneira).
This summer I will spend quite some time in the Douro - if I'm bored I might visit the locations that you show on your maps and see what is out there these days...

[DRT]

In the book "O Douro" by Manuel Monteiro I found some references for you.

Christian, is it an English version of that book that you have? If so, do you have the ISBN number or some other reference that would allow me to find a copy? I have only seen it in Portuguese.

Derek

[JacobH]

Hi Jacob - I must say I really like your idea! Port wine is so much about history - and if there is anything I can do, then I'm more than glad to help you. In the book "O Douro" by Manuel Monteiro I found some references for you.
Quinta da Baleira - in 1911 it belonged to Julio Antonio Teixeira da Costa Montenegro. There is even a picture in my book, however - it's not very good, and it's difficult to spot the Quinta.

Thanks Christian! I completely agree, one of the big interests for me with Port is its history, especially in the Douro where the Quintas have changed the landscape so much I think they will pretty much always be there. I hadn’t thought of looking at that book for obscure Quintas but it’s a goldmine of information. It also says Baleira sold its Port to Cockburn so that might try asking them once I’ve finished the other Quintas and can marshal all my questions together.

I don't see the Quinta do S. Martinho e Mileu mentioned... However, there existed in 1911 a Quinta do Mileu, which belonged to the Visconde de S.Joao de Pesqueira. This Quinta had a small chapel attached. There is a beautiful photo in my book - but I somehow haven't yet managed to connect my scanner to my computer... so I can't show it to you at the moment... sorry...

‟O Douro Illustrado” (another goldmine of information about the Quintas, this time in 1876) by Visconde de Villa Maior says that there were two small quintas located at the mouth of the São Martinho river, São Martinho and Mileu, the former owned by the Rector of Linhares and the latter, as you say, by the Viscount of São João da Pesqueira. I imagine they are so small Forrester showed them as one on his map. Not much chance of finding out what happened to them since; they could easily be absorbed into another quinta or still be functioning as very small ones.

In the book "O Douro" by Manuel Monteiro I found some references for you.

Christian, is it an English version of that book that you have? If so, do you have the ISBN number or some other reference that would allow me to find a copy? I have only seen it in Portuguese.

Derek, has this book ever been reprinted, to your knowledge? It would be great to be able to consult a copy without having to take a trip to a library, even in Portuguese!

Finally, a more general question: are there any significant vineyards between Malvedos and Romaneira on the North side of the river? Looking at the satellite pictures, there seems to be at least two (although one looks possibly inactive). I would have thought, with Roriz on the South side, this would be prime territory, but none of the books I have mention any Quintas there at all.

[DRT]

Jacob,

The quinta that shows up as being active on google earth is marked as Cottas on Forrester's map.

I found a couple of hits for the Monteiro book on Portuguese websites today. Will try to find them again and post links here.

Derek

[Christian]

Hello Jacob: I have a facsimile of the original book "O Douro". It was printed in 1998 by Edicoes Livro Branco, Lta. The ISBN is 972-8317-21-2. I found it last year in an antiquarian bookstore in Porto and it's a fascinating book! It's in Portuguese, and even if I think that I speak Portuguese quite well, this book shows me my limitations. Either the Portuguese used by Monteiro is very old-fashioned or (most likely) very sophisticated... but often I read a sentence and have afterwards no idea what he just said... Anyhow: I don't know "O Douro Illustrado" - but so far "O Douro" is my favorite book about the Douro...

[JacobH]

Hello Jacob: I have a facsimile of the original book "O Douro". It was printed in 1998 by Edicoes Livro Branco, Lta. The ISBN is 972-8317-21-2. I found it last year in an antiquarian bookstore in Porto and it's a fascinating book!

Ah, thanks. The publisher has a website which lists the book but with no indication as to how you might buy a copy. I suppose you might need a Portuguese bookshop to order it for you.

Anyhow: I don't know "O Douro Illustrado" - but so far "O Douro" is my favorite book about the Douro...

‟O Douro Illustrado” is a similar book to ‟O Douro”, in that it has a general introduction to the Douro and then describes the places you would see on a trip down the river. It’s quite interesting since it was written in 1876 and so is a completely different era. The text is tri-lingual (English, French and Portuguese) with the illustrations being a small-number of full-plate engravings. It was reprinted by the IVDP in 1990 with the ISBN: 9722704214. Worth picking up a copy if you see it.

[jdaw1]

Perhaps somebody with an out-of-copyright edition would be kind enough to scan and post.

[DRT]

A facsimile reprint of Monteiro's "O Douro" is available from WOOK at enormous expense.

[DRT]

The IVDP have a shop that sells Port and books at their headquarters in Porto. O Douro Illustrado is available in their library (I have seen it) and might also still be available to purchase in their shop.

[JacobH]

A facsimile reprint of Monteiro's "O Douro" is available from WOOK at enormous expense.

I think the comma is being used a decimal point in the amount, unless you were being ironic!

On a related topic, I had no idea that Portuguese orthography over the last 150 years was so complex, with so many of the ae diphthongs becoming ai (e.g. Canaes to Canais); lots of adding or removing double LLs (e.g. Arnozello to Arnozelo, Valado to Vallado, whilst Vargellas remained Vargellas); Zs to Ss (e.g. Vezuvio to Vesuvio) and so on...

[Alex Bridgeman]

...lots of adding or removing double LLs (e.g. Arnozello to Arnozelo, Valado to Vallado, whilst Vargellas remained Vargellas)...

And just to make things more confusing, the railway station at Quinta de Vargellas is the Vargelas railway station.

(I think.)

[JacobH]

...lots of adding or removing double LLs (e.g. Arnozello to Arnozelo, Valado to Vallado, whilst Vargellas remained Vargellas)...

And just to make things more confusing, the railway station at Quinta de Vargellas is the Vargelas railway station.

I believe I read somewhere, that the three Quintas de Vargelas which were merged into the modern Taylor’s property were spelled thus, with Taylor’s choosing to revert to a more archaic spelling when they took over (which has, of course, been with us for over 150 years).

[DRT]

...lots of adding or removing double LLs (e.g. Arnozello to Arnozelo, Valado to Vallado, whilst Vargellas remained Vargellas)...

And just to make things more confusing, the railway station at Quinta de Vargellas is the Vargelas railway station.

I believe I read somewhere, that the three Quintas de Vargelas which were merged into the modern Taylor’s property were spelled thus, with Taylor’s choosing to revert to a more archaic spelling when they took over (which has, of course, been with us for over 150 years).

Vargelas, Vargellas,
Toe-may-toe, tomato
Let's call the whole thing off!

[Alex Bridgeman]

...lots of adding or removing double LLs (e.g. Arnozello to Arnozelo, Valado to Vallado, whilst Vargellas remained Vargellas)...

And just to make things more confusing, the railway station at Quinta de Vargellas is the Vargelas railway station.

I believe I read somewhere, that the three Quintas de Vargelas which were merged into the modern Taylor’s property were spelled thus, with Taylor’s choosing to revert to a more archaic spelling when they took over (which has, of course, been with us for over 150 years).

Vargelas, Vargellas,
Toe-may-toe, tomato
Let's call the whole thing off!

Oh God! He's gone musical. I'm off to bed before he gets back from the loo.

I must hide the rest of the magnum before he returns...

[JacobH]

...lots of adding or removing double LLs (e.g. Arnozello to Arnozelo, Valado to Vallado, whilst Vargellas remained Vargellas)...

And just to make things more confusing, the railway station at Quinta de Vargellas is the Vargelas railway station.

I believe I read somewhere, that the three Quintas de Vargelas which were merged into the modern Taylor’s property were spelled thus, with Taylor’s choosing to revert to a more archaic spelling when they took over (which has, of course, been with us for over 150 years).

Vargelas, Vargellas,
Toe-may-toe, tomato
Let's call the whole thing off!

Oh God! He's gone musical. I'm off to bed before he gets back from the loo.

I must hide the rest of the magnum before he returns...

Hide? Surely a straw can reach even the bottom of a Magnum?

[Alex Bridgeman]

...lots of adding or removing double LLs (e.g. Arnozello to Arnozelo, Valado to Vallado, whilst Vargellas remained Vargellas)...

And just to make things more confusing, the railway station at Quinta de Vargellas is the Vargelas railway station.

I believe I read somewhere, that the three Quintas de Vargelas which were merged into the modern Taylor’s property were spelled thus, with Taylor’s choosing to revert to a more archaic spelling when they took over (which has, of course, been with us for over 150 years).

Vargelas, Vargellas,
Toe-may-toe, tomato
Let's call the whole thing off!

Oh God! He's gone musical. I'm off to bed before he gets back from the loo.

I must hide the rest of the magnum before he returns...

Hide? Surely a straw can reach even the bottom of a Magnum?

Not if he (the straw wielder) can't find the magnum!