Green or brown?

[10Anos]

I've noticed most port comes in green bottles. But recently I've had some from brown bottles (Dow's Colheita, Warre's Warrior)...

Is there a particular reason to prefer brown bottles over green ones?

[jdaw1]

This was discussed in this thread, asking about the decanting time for an unknown vintage port.

[10Anos]

Thank you for the link to the thread, it was interesting to read how to make an educated guess about a VP's age when the labels have disappeared. Unfortunately, it didn't answer my question.
I'm talking about recently fabricated bottles with labels that are still firmly in place. Is there a reason why a shipper would go for brown rather than the ubiquitous green bottles?

[10Anos]

After rereading uncle tom's post on the different colours I discovered I had overlooked the last "category" (Oporto bottlings in brown glass) .

Does a brown bottle always mean it's an Oporto-bottling?

[Alex Bridgeman]

All port has been bottled in Oporto or the Douro since 1975 so the colour glass used for recent vintages or bottlings will be purely a marketing decision.

Before 1975, there were brown bottles used in UK bottlings as well as in Oporto bottlings. Certainly in the period 1940-1955 the colour glass used for bottles was influenced more by what was available than any marketing reason. Green glass was in very short supply during and immediately after the war.

[Andy Velebil]

For VP's, older Oporto bottlings were typically in dark black or occassionally brown bottles. Green was typically used by UK merchants. Of course there are exceptions either way, but that is a good generic guide to start at.

As to the color, darker is better and that is why almost all VP's and SQVP's now come in dark bottles. The darker the bottle, the less light transmited through it. Which helps to prevent sun/light related damage. Interesting thing is, the US beer industry has done lots of studies about light transmition through different color glass bottles and that is why many now use darker bottles and/or tall cardboard cases to pakage them in.

[10Anos]

OK, thanks. After my last post I was thinking Douro/V.N. de Gaia (green) and Oporto (brown). Coincidentally, both brown bottles I mentioned in my original post were bottled by the Symingtons in Oporto. I've also had port from the Symingtons bottled in V.N. de Gaia, and they were in green bottles. That got me thinking.

But it's more technical or marketing related than that...

[Andy Velebil]

I think its important to distinguish what types of Port we are talking about here.

Cheaper stuff (basic rubies, tawnys, etc) typically come in inexpensive green bottles.

Some colheita's do come in brown, but some also come in green or black.

VPs and SQVP are now generally in black bottles as are almost all tawnys with an indication of age.

All is bottled in VndG or up in the Douro now, as Alex mentioned.

[jdaw1]

Some tawnies also come in a frosted glass.

[KillerB]

Some tawnies also come in a frosted glass.

Some tawnies sit outside, eyeing up small mammals.

[10Anos]

I think its important to distinguish what types of Port we are talking about here.

Cheaper stuff (basic rubies, tawnys, etc) typically come in inexpensive green bottles.

Some colheita's do come in brown, but some also come in green or black.

VPs and SQVP are now generally in black bottles as are almost all tawnys with an indication of age.

All is bottled in VndG or up in the Douro now, as Alex mentioned.

There are exceptions. I noticed even standard Warre's ports sold here are in brown bottles and I've had an Offley LBV from a black bottle with driven cork. Other than that it's pretty much as ADV describes.
I didn't realize until now that VndG and Oporto are mentioned in one breath (i.e. outside the Douro).
BTW, Douro bottlings seem to be rare, so far I've had just one (Casal dos Jordões), the rest was VndG/O...

[Andy Velebil]

[quote="10Anos]

BTW, Douro bottlings seem to be rare, so far I've had just one (Casal dos Jordões), the rest was VndG/O...[/quote]

You will most likely be seeig more in the future as some producers shift their full production lines up there. Saves a lot on transportation costs down to VndG. Although with their "Lodge" still in VndG, it will probably still list VndG as the location.

[10Anos]

You will most likely be seeig more in the future as some producers shift their full production lines up there. Saves a lot on transportation costs down to VndG.

I wonder... most of the port will be shipped to outside of Portugal. Wouldn't that mean that it has to come down to VndG/Oporto anyway? And would transporting down from the Douro region in bottles not be far more expensive than in tanker trucks, like they do now?

[Andy Velebil]

COnsidering it is picked, vinified, and temporarly stored in the Douro already its a no brainer to just leave it there and save the costs of loading it into a tanker, driving it down river, unloading into a tank, then back to a different tank just prior to bottling, then bottle, truck to port, load on ship/plane/etc.

You can say how that gets expensive real quick. Leave in Douro and cut out 1/2 your costs. Of course, there is the inital expense of setting up the bottling line and building cooled wharehouses. But in the long run, cheaper and easier than all that moving it around stuff.

Some producers have already made this shift and I believe there will be many more following suit in due time.

[10Anos]

I can't really say that I'm convinced that the shipping of bottles from the Douro makes things much cheaper. Glass bottles are rather heavy and since they're round so much space around the bottles is just air (which still has to be paid for). I don't think that one truck load of bottles is more than 1/5th the amount of port of a single tanker truck's load... Okay, I admit that I'm just guessing these numbers (but maybe it's even worse).

What I can imagine, though, is that having less real estate saves a lot of money. Also, working on less different sites will make things simpler and save money.

Today I bought a 20yo Tawny from an unknown brand. On the bottle it says in the description that it's been bottled in the Douro, the "Bottled and shipped by..." says V.N. de Gaia, though...so it's not always very clear, but considering the (average) age of this port I'm going to assume the latter is correct.

[jdaw1]

Also see the BBC story Wine makers crack open hi-tech tricks.

[uncle tom]

The relative economics of UK vs Oporto bottling are hard to define.

If you can sell the empty barrel on to the Whisky distillers for a good price, then it makes sense (if all other costs are equal) to ship in bulk and bottle here, but if the empty barrel has to be returned to Portugal, then the economic argument loses traction; much depends on the demand for UK sourced products in Portugal. So from an economic standpoint, there is no definitive answer.

I do know that the end of UK VP bottling was greeted with dismay by the likes of Michael Broadbent, who felt that the UK bottlers produced a superior product. Quite why however, is unanswered..

My personal 'gut' feeling is that the Uk bottlings of older vintages are a bit like female motorists - encompassing in their midst both the safest and most dangerous, while the Oporto bottlings trundle tediously down the middle of the road..

Tom