Port House abbreviations

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 21:04 Wed 16 Sep 2020

Quinta do Javali Vintage Maria Luísa 2018:
Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa Vintage é sinónimo de excelência e resulta da nossa constante exigência na qualidade. Em anos em que a excelência é atingida, o vinho merece a designação Maria Luísa.

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Cor escura e profunda, com auréola violácea e intensa. Na apreciação olfativa, destaca-se uma notável complexidade aromática, com notas frutadas de ameixa preta e amora. Em boca, fica confirmado que estamos perante um “enorme” Vintage Javali, com uma estrutura bem sólida, suportada por taninos opulentos e maduros. A fruta preta e o chocolate negro voltam a surgir num final longo e marcante.
Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PCM » 21:49 Wed 16 Sep 2020

That is difficult to say: the varieties are identical and the number of bottles produced is about the same as Quinta do Javali VP 2017 (suggesting it's the same product) but the pricepoint in their shop is even higher than for the "normal" VP. My guessing is: another name for the same product :wink: !
Last edited by PCM on 22:02 Wed 16 Sep 2020, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 21:52 Wed 16 Sep 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
21:04 Wed 16 Sep 2020
Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?
I believe it is the designation for their special vines, which would suggest JvML

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 00:35 Thu 17 Sep 2020

PhilW wrote:
21:52 Wed 16 Sep 2020
jdaw1 wrote:
21:04 Wed 16 Sep 2020
Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?
I believe it is the designation for their special vines, which would suggest JvML
If so, then I agree with the abbreviation. But I think more research is warranted before adding to the list for something that has cropped up for the first time.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 08:32 Thu 17 Sep 2020

PhilW wrote:
21:52 Wed 16 Sep 2020
I believe it is the designation for their special vines
Are all of Javali’s vines deemed ‘special’?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 09:21 Thu 17 Sep 2020

Glenn E. wrote:
00:35 Thu 17 Sep 2020
PhilW wrote:
21:52 Wed 16 Sep 2020
jdaw1 wrote:
21:04 Wed 16 Sep 2020
Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?
I believe it is the designation for their special vines, which would suggest JvML
If so, then I agree with the abbreviation. But I think more research is warranted before adding to the list for something that has cropped up for the first time.
jdaw1 wrote:
08:32 Thu 17 Sep 2020
PhilW wrote:
21:52 Wed 16 Sep 2020
I believe it is the designation for their special vines
Are all of Javali’s vines deemed ‘special’?
My Portuguese isn't good enough to tell. I got as far as determining that:
- they have released a Quinta do Javali VP in several previous years, and none of them included the Maria Luísa designation (all those labels simply say Quinta do Javali 20xx Vintage Port).
- they also produce various (non-fortified) wines, of which Maria Luísa is a particular brand; my translation capability gets limited here, it looks like they talk about it being from a specific line (of vines?), and a particular terroir - but that may be ephemeral marketing to describe a particular flavour profile, or could relate to specific vines (which could be the whole of QdJv, with grapes for their other wines coming from elsewhere, or could be a specific subset of vines at QdJv).
- the brief sheet for the QdJvML18 appears to say (again, limited translation capability here) that the QdJv18 has received the ML designation due to the particular quality, and of course just because they decide to use a designation relating to (potentially) "special"/particular vines at the QdJv property, may or may not imply that the wine is made from those vines either wholly, partly, or not at all and it't solely a marketing term.
It certainly seems to imply a "special" variant, with the additional term appearing to refer to some specific vines at the Quinta do Javali property; but that is as much as I can tell based on my limited capability of Portuguese translation, and I agree we need confirmation of whether/what it means from the producer.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PCM » 11:54 Thu 17 Sep 2020

This is a statement from the Quinta do Javali website (also available in English, my Portuguese is even more limited than Phil's :wink:)

"Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa Vintage is synonymous of excellence and results from our constant quality requirements. In years, when excellence is achieved, wine deserves the designation Maria Luísa."

Imho that doesn't mean it's a seperate vineyard but just a designation of quality. This is sustained by the fact that the composition of grape varieties is identical to that of the "regular" QdJ VP's and the number of bottles produced: 1279 in 2017 (no Maria Luisa) and 1301 (Maria Luisa, no regular) in 2018.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 19:47 Thu 17 Sep 2020

Q: is Javali Maria Luísa sufficiently different to Javali to have a different abbreviation? Your answer should compare and contrast with Fonseca and Fonseca Guimaraens.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PCM » 22:09 Thu 17 Sep 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
19:47 Thu 17 Sep 2020
Q: is Javali Maria Luísa sufficiently different to Javali to have a different abbreviation? Your answer should compare and contrast with Fonseca and Fonseca Guimaraens.
To be honest, the only one that can answer that question is the producer, not me (but I think it isn't!!)

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 22:59 Thu 17 Sep 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
19:47 Thu 17 Sep 2020
Q: is Javali Maria Luísa sufficiently different to Javali to have a different abbreviation? Your answer should compare and contrast with Fonseca and Fonseca Guimaraens.
FG is an excellent comparison, albeit in the opposite direction. If JvML is in fact a designation of quality that they're going to use more than once, then it seems appropriate to give it its own abbreviation as we have done with FG.

Its own abbreviation is also warranted if it is a vineyard designation, though given the size of the release relative to normal Jv releases that does not seem to be the case.

My only concern is that they're actually going to use it. I don't feel compelled to create an abbreviation for every one-off that some producer decides to produce and then forgets about. Note that we did not create an abbreviation for 2007 Niepoort Pisca and Dirk has not made it since. Perhaps we should assign it NiPi and see if that prompts him to make it again?
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by winesecretary » 00:23 Fri 18 Sep 2020

Right. But Niepoort Pisca became Bioma in 08. We have now had... five Biomas? It has longevity as a name.

But, that is not determinative. To my view, crucially, it is actually different from that wine from which it is distinguished. Thus, Pisca makes the actually differential cut, as does Bioma.

ML appears to be a marketing thing. We should ignore marketing things since it is not distinct from the underlying vineyard.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 08:51 Fri 18 Sep 2020

winesecretary wrote:
00:23 Fri 18 Sep 2020
ML appears to be a marketing thing. We should ignore marketing things since it is not distinct from the underlying vineyard.
I am not saying that you are wrong. But you haven’t engaged with the precedent of Fonseca versus Fonseca Guimaraens.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by winesecretary » 10:57 Fri 18 Sep 2020

Guimaraens is problematic, I agree, as it has appeared as Vintage, LBV and SQVP...

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 18:22 Fri 18 Sep 2020

winesecretary wrote:
00:23 Fri 18 Sep 2020
Right. But Niepoort Pisca became Bioma in 08.
Right. So an abbreviation for Niepoort Pisca would be kind of useless since it was only made once, whether or not it is actually different than Bioma. (Which, according to Niepoort, it isn't. Second paragraph, last sentence.) And we already have an abbreviation for Niepoort Bioma (NiB).
winesecretary wrote:
10:57 Fri 18 Sep 2020
Guimaraens is problematic, I agree, as it has appeared as Vintage, LBV and SQVP...
Not as SQVP, as it isn't a Quinta. It is a "second label" Vintage Port typically produced in off years when others are making SQVPs, but it isn't an SQVP itself. (Note that SQVP isn't a formal category, it's just something us geeks use to refer to Vintage Port from a single quinta that is usually only produced in off years and is typically less expensive than fully declared VP.) I don't recall whether or not they have ever produced both F and FG in the same year, but they could.

Appearing as an LBV isn't an issue because, well, every producer does that.

Back to Javali Maria Luísa. I don't think we should make it official until they produce it again, but if they do actually continue to use the name to represent a higher-quality version of their Port, then it is worthy of its own abbreviation just like FG.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by winesecretary » 18:51 Fri 18 Sep 2020

@ Glenn - my apologies, I should have been more specific. Guimaraens - branded SQVPs from Quinta do Mileau were made in (at least) 1944, 1946 & 1947 (Book page 311); and Guimaraens -branded Quinta do Cruzeiro was made in 1982 (Book page 173) (vintageport.se adds 1978). VWAP has Guimaraens - branded 1958 LBV bottled 1962 for sale.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 19:10 Fri 18 Sep 2020

Ah, I see what you're saying now.

Puzzling, as those look like a separate company (though they're obviously not). Winesearcher has this picture of the 1982 Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro bottled and shipped by Guimaraens Vinhos S.A.R.L. Fonseca is currently bottled and shipped by Quinta and Vinyard Bottlers Vinhos S.A., but I have bottles of Fonseca from a couple of different bottlers including both of the above plus a Fonseca Guimaraens Vinhos S.A. Seems that they've been changing the name of the bottling company fairly regularly.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 23:24 Sat 19 Sep 2020

Vintage Port and its declarations are entirely neat and organised, except when they aren’t.
Oscar Wilde wrote:And, though it sounds absurd to say so, he is really not so ugly after all, provided, of course, that one shuts one’s eyes, and does not look at him. The Lizards were extremely philosophical by nature, and often sat thinking for hours and hours together, when there was nothing else to do, or when the weather was too rainy for them to go out.
FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 02:35 Sun 20 Sep 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
23:24 Sat 19 Sep 2020
FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.
Based on usual practice and the above picture, we should have a separate abbreviations for Fonseca Guimaraens and the various Guimaraens SQVPs. Potentially also for a straight Guimaraens VP, if such a thing was ever produced.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 15:20 Sun 20 Sep 2020

A decision is needed, and I think it should be the following. As yet, there is no need for a new abbreviation for Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa. It might be that, in time, one becomes appropriate, but with the information we have now, not yet.

Any strong objection?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 16:29 Sun 20 Sep 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
15:20 Sun 20 Sep 2020
A decision is needed, and I think it should be the following. As yet, there is no need for a new abbreviation for Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa. It might be that, in time, one becomes appropriate, but with the information we have now, not yet.
I'm not aware of any urgency for a decision, however if one is needed in the short term I would agree with staying with Jv18 for now until we know better. FYI I did email the winemaker on Friday to ask the obvious questions, but have not had a response as yet - I will report back if/when I hear anything.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 17:01 Sun 20 Sep 2020

Glenn E. wrote:
02:35 Sun 20 Sep 2020
jdaw1 wrote:
23:24 Sat 19 Sep 2020
FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.
Based on usual practice and the above picture, we should have a separate abbreviations for Fonseca Guimaraens and the various Guimaraens SQVPs. Potentially also for a straight Guimaraens VP, if such a thing was ever produced.
Indeed, we should have a separate Guimaraens abbreviation, as it appeared as its own VP brand for many years; I would suggest Gm. As for the SQVPs - for Fonseca quinta do Panascal we already have FP, and with regard to Cruzeiros there is only the '78 (labelled FG78 but cork Cruzeiro) and the '82 (labelled Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro), and we have typically been less keen on assigning abbreviations for one-offs. So F, FG, FP, Gm would be sufficient imo. GmM could be added also for Guimaraens Quinta do Mileau (3 vintages) if wanted.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 20:17 Sun 20 Sep 2020

My opinion is that the need for an abbreviation should arise from the winemaker’s intention to make a distinction between winemaking philosophies.

Thus the winemaker clearly intends Croft Vintage Port to be viewed as distinct and different from Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Port; or Fonseca to be viewed as distinct and different from Fonseca Guimaraens. All should have separate abbreviations, even if only produced once. Quinta do Tedo produced their Savedra selection for the first time a few years ago (perhaps 2007? I forget and don’t have access to my notes as I write this). That was intended to be viewed as a different wine from the standard Tedo blend so should have received an abbreviation as soon as we became aware of it.

We are not clear whether the Javali Maria Luisa wine is a different selection, or a different wine-making approach — or just a particularly delicious vintage. I vote that we wait and see. Hopefully time will reveal the answer.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 18:25 Mon 21 Sep 2020

jdaw1 wrote:
15:20 Sun 20 Sep 2020
A decision is needed, and I think it should be the following. As yet, there is no need for a new abbreviation for Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa. It might be that, in time, one becomes appropriate, but with the information we have now, not yet.

Any strong objection?
None here.
PhilW wrote:
17:01 Sun 20 Sep 2020
Glenn E. wrote:
02:35 Sun 20 Sep 2020
jdaw1 wrote:
23:24 Sat 19 Sep 2020
FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.
Based on usual practice and the above picture, we should have a separate abbreviations for Fonseca Guimaraens and the various Guimaraens SQVPs. Potentially also for a straight Guimaraens VP, if such a thing was ever produced.
Indeed, we should have a separate Guimaraens abbreviation, as it appeared as its own VP brand for many years; I would suggest Gm. As for the SQVPs - for Fonseca quinta do Panascal we already have FP, and with regard to Cruzeiros there is only the '78 (labelled FG78 but cork Cruzeiro) and the '82 (labelled Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro), and we have typically been less keen on assigning abbreviations for one-offs. So F, FG, FP, Gm would be sufficient imo. GmM could be added also for Guimaraens Quinta do Mileau (3 vintages) if wanted.
All sounds correct to me.
AHB wrote:
20:17 Sun 20 Sep 2020
My opinion is that the need for an abbreviation should arise from the winemaker’s intention to make a distinction between winemaking philosophies.

Thus the winemaker clearly intends Croft Vintage Port to be viewed as distinct and different from Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Port; or Fonseca to be viewed as distinct and different from Fonseca Guimaraens. All should have separate abbreviations, even if only produced once. Quinta do Tedo produced their Savedra selection for the first time a few years ago (perhaps 2007? I forget and don’t have access to my notes as I write this). That was intended to be viewed as a different wine from the standard Tedo blend so should have received an abbreviation as soon as we became aware of it.

We are not clear whether the Javali Maria Luisa wine is a different selection, or a different wine-making approach — or just a particularly delicious vintage. I vote that we wait and see. Hopefully time will reveal the answer.
I like this explanation, but I still think we should normally defer until such time as an abbreviation is needed, or at least until the wine has been made more than once. The list already risks becoming unmanageable due to size. If we instantly created abbreviations for every VP produced it would balloon past that point very quickly.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 15:51 Wed 18 Nov 2020

AHB wrote:
20:17 Sun 20 Sep 2020
My opinion is that the need for an abbreviation should arise from the winemaker’s intention to make a distinction between winemaking philosophies.

Thus the winemaker clearly intends Croft Vintage Port to be viewed as distinct and different from Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Port; or Fonseca to be viewed as distinct and different from Fonseca Guimaraens. All should have separate abbreviations, even if only produced once. Quinta do Tedo produced their Savedra selection for the first time a few years ago (perhaps 2007? I forget and don’t have access to my notes as I write this). That was intended to be viewed as a different wine from the standard Tedo blend so should have received an abbreviation as soon as we became aware of it.

We are not clear whether the Javali Maria Luisa wine is a different selection, or a different wine-making approach — or just a particularly delicious vintage. I vote that we wait and see. Hopefully time will reveal the answer.
I've just heard back from the Quinta do Javali winemaker that the "Maria Luisa" designation is intended to indicate a particularly high quality vintage of their port (in comparison to their other years, and whether a generally declared year or not), not a different process or specific vines.

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