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jdaw1 wrote:…
CrR = Croft Quinta da Roêda
…
KL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
…
MsC = Messias Quinta do Cachão

You are all ganging up on me. It’s a conspiracy.

My lawyer says that I should take the plea-bargain. He’s in the conspiracy too.

Should we vote on whether Luiz deserves to lose his sainthood?

PhilW wrote:Should we vote on whether Luiz deserves to lose his sainthood?

No. I have given a whole class of concessions. KL.

CR versus CrR:


First so much more elegant.

I think the above is a good demonstration of the advantage of brevity from a visual perspective; I am partly persuaded that it would be worth attempting to keep the complete abbreviation to three letters where possible, though I would still prefer to keep the original house abbreviation intact. This does mean I feel slightly more favourable towards ChA and TVV than previously, as alternative to the four letter versions.

PhilW wrote:I think the above is a good demonstration of the advantage of brevity from a visual perspective; I am partly persuaded that it would be worth attempting to keep the complete abbreviation to three letters where possible

Three better than four; two better than three.

I believe both can be improved visually by a small gap between central and circular text (mitigating, not negating the point).

PhilW wrote:I believe both can be improved visually by a small gap between central and circular text (mitigating, not negating the point).

Actually, reducing the amount of space available.

My hope is to persuade people that brevity is an important desideratum.

While I agree that brevity is important, I strongly feel that clarity is more important.

Also, placemats should not be the driving factor behind this decision.

Willing to concede KL, though I do feel that KSL is much more correct. No one refers to the quinta as "Luis".

Glenn E. wrote:Also, placemats should not be the driving factor behind this decision.

It is the main purpose of the abbreviations. Willing to consider the problem more generally, but ignoring the main purpose seems wrong.

jdaw1 wrote:

Glenn E. wrote:Also, placemats should not be the driving factor behind this decision.

It is the main purpose of the abbreviations. Willing to consider the problem more generally, but ignoring the main purpose seems wrong.

I thought it was to make it easier to refer to things like the 2009 Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo Late Bottled Vintage Port during internet discussions amongst geeks. Even less extreme examples such as F85 are much simpler and easier to write.

Placemats may have been the original purpose, but it seems to me at this point that common and recognizable abbreviations on internet forums (and in books!) is more important.

Glenn E. wrote:I thought it was to make it easier to refer to things like the 2009 Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo Late Bottled Vintage Port during internet discussions amongst geeks. Even less extreme examples such as F85 are much simpler and easier to write.

Placemats may have been the original purpose, but it seems to me at this point that common and recognizable abbreviations on internet forums (and in books!) is more important.

Which still says that one of the purposes, for a significant proportion even if not the same proportion for everybody, requires brevity.

Sogrape themselves don’t think São sufficiently important to be written in full:

Sogrape wrote:S. Luiz Vineyard

Quinta S. Luiz is situated …. Today, Quinta de S. Luiz cover 125 hectares of total area, which 90 hectares have, vineyards. The planting of the vineyards in the Quinta de S. Luiz has always been done using ….

*CURIOSITY Quinta S. Luiz was owned by C.N. Kopke & Cª in 1922…

KL.

jdaw1 wrote:Sogrape themselves don’t think São sufficiently important to be written in full:

Sogrape wrote:S. Luiz Vineyard

Quinta S. Luiz is situated …. Today, Quinta de S. Luiz cover 125 hectares of total area, which 90 hectares have, vineyards. The planting of the vineyards in the Quinta de S. Luiz has always been done using ….

*CURIOSITY Quinta S. Luiz was owned by C.N. Kopke & Cª in 1922…

KL.

I rarely see "saint" written out in full, either. Inconclusive - it's simply a commonly abbreviated word.

Wait, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, abbreviations...

Catching up on things which were discussed while I was on holiday, I've just read through this thread.

Am I too late to join in? Is the list on page 2 the current final version of the list? Do we need to discuss further the abbreviations for Noval Silval, Noval Quinta do Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinto do Silval?

Also, I would observe that the most frequent use of the abbreviations is not on placemats, but in the discussion threads on this board when clarity is much more important that brevity. In the past I have agreed to swap bottles with a fellow port lover but received Feuerheerd port instead of the Ferreira port I had expected! (Although, for the sake of the feelings of the person concerned, I want to stress that I was actually delighted to receive the Feuerheerd port as it was something I had not tried very often before and had never owned.)

AHB wrote:Am I too late to join in?

No. Not final until book at publisher.

AHB wrote:Is the list on page 2 the current final version of the list?

It doesn’t have to be.

AHB wrote:Do we need to discuss further the abbreviations for Noval Silval, Noval Quinta do Silval, Quinta do Noval Quinto do Silval?

{Sigh} Perhaps.

AHB wrote:Also, I would observe that the most frequent use of the abbreviations is not on placemats, but in the discussion threads on this board when clarity is much more important that brevity. In the past I have agreed to swap bottles with a fellow port lover but received Feuerheerd port instead of the Ferreira port I had expected! (Although, for the sake of the feelings of the person concerned, I want to stress that I was actually delighted to receive the Feuerheerd port as it was something I had not tried very often before and had never owned.)

Feuerheerd = Fd. Hard to confuse. Concise (me happy) and unambiguous. Ferreira, with three r’s, is Fr. If clarity so much more important than brevity, one could use ‘abbreviations’ of “Feuerheerd” and “Ferreira”: not concise, but unlikely to be confused.

For me, the abbreviations must be (in order of importance):
Consistently used
Intuitive and unambiguous
Brief

I like Fd, Fr but not Fe. Feist could be Ft, which would be unambiguous.

I like D for Dow. DB works as Bomfim but causes confusion when used close to DG. I would prefer single letter shippers to have double letter Quinta abbreviations. Thus you would have DBo, DSR and these would be distinct from DG. To be consistent you could run this further and have GMa, GST, WCa, VCp etc.

AHB wrote:For me, the abbreviations must be (in order of importance):
Consistently used
Intuitive and unambiguous
Brief

For me, approximately equally weighted.

AHB wrote:I like Fd, Fr but not Fe. Feist could be Ft, which would be unambiguous.

As I say ‘Feist’, the ‘s’ is stronger than the ‘t’. Would you object to ‘Fs’ — which cannot be confused with Feuerheerd, nor with Ferreira?

AHB wrote:I like D for Dow. DB works as Bomfim but causes confusion when used close to DG. I would prefer single letter shippers to have double letter Quinta abbreviations. Thus you would have DBo, DSR and these would be distinct from DG. To be consistent you could run this further and have GMa, GST, WCa, VCp etc.

Brevity important for me. ‘GM’ = Malvedos. ‘GST’ acceptable for the — alas rare — Stone Terraces. Cavadinha = WC; Capela = VC. Brevity important.

List in first post of this thread.

jdaw1 wrote:Updated list:

List looks good to me.

Two added:
SJ = A Pinto dos Santos Júnior
Ud = O-Port-Unidade (precedent)

PhilW wrote:

jdaw1 wrote:Updated list:

List looks good to me.

And me.

Do we need an 'E' to fill out the alphabet? I was backing up pictures and ran across several from my 50th birthday party. This was the cake. Everything above the silver-wrapped serving board is edible.

What about Real Vinicola?

(I'm happy with the proposed Fs for Feist.)

AHB wrote:What about Real Vinicola?

= RO?

No, a different brand owned by the same company. The same only in the sense that Gould Campbell and Quarles Harris are the same. While the same wine could be used for the different labels, it was also equally possible that different juice was used.

RVi? RVc? Pee? RVo?


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