Port House abbreviations

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AHB
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 20:32 Sun 04 Sep 2016

What is the rule for a single letter abbreviation to be used for a shipper? Why no single letter abbreviation for shippers beginning with M?
Top Ports in 2018 (so far): Niepoort VV (1960's Bottling), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994 and San Leonardo Very Old White (Bottled 2018)
2017 Ports of the year: Fonseca 1927 and Quinta do Noval 1927

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AHB
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 20:33 Sun 04 Sep 2016

jdaw1 wrote:RVi? RVc? Pee? RVo?
RVi works for me
Top Ports in 2018 (so far): Niepoort VV (1960's Bottling), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994 and San Leonardo Very Old White (Bottled 2018)
2017 Ports of the year: Fonseca 1927 and Quinta do Noval 1927

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 20:40 Sun 04 Sep 2016

AHB wrote:What is the rule for a single letter abbreviation to be used for a shipper? Why no single letter abbreviation for shippers beginning with M?
Shippers are not equal. Taylor is a more important shipper that Tedo. As Taylor is the only ‘T’ with this property, Taylor gets a single letter. Likewise, Sandeman and Skeffington; Graham and Guedes; Fonseca and Feuerheerd; Dow and Dalva.

There are no important M shippers. None get the single-letter privilege.

The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 20:43 Sun 04 Sep 2016


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AHB
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 22:19 Sun 04 Sep 2016

jdaw1 wrote:The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.
Burmester is historically more important to shippers beginning with B than Martinez is to shippers beginning with M. Discuss. (100 marks available.)
Top Ports in 2018 (so far): Niepoort VV (1960's Bottling), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994 and San Leonardo Very Old White (Bottled 2018)
2017 Ports of the year: Fonseca 1927 and Quinta do Noval 1927

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 22:21 Sun 04 Sep 2016

AHB wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:The definition of ‘important’ is ‘as deemed by JDAW’.
Burmester is historically more important to shippers beginning with B than Martinez is to shippers beginning with M. Discuss. (100 marks available.)
That’s fair. Martinez = M?

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AHB
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 23:03 Sun 04 Sep 2016

Martinez = M has better brevity than Burmester = Bu.

Works for me.
Top Ports in 2018 (so far): Niepoort VV (1960's Bottling), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994 and San Leonardo Very Old White (Bottled 2018)
2017 Ports of the year: Fonseca 1927 and Quinta do Noval 1927

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 23:34 Sun 04 Sep 2016

It’s a substantial change of years-long practice. It needs more of a consensus than AHB enthusiasm and JDAW reluctant acceptance of change in a changing world. Others?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 18:29 Mon 05 Sep 2016

I am mostly ambivalent, but happy to accept our new M=Martinez overlords.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 18:30 Mon 05 Sep 2016

Why not RV for Real Vinicola?
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 18:32 Mon 05 Sep 2016

Glenn E. wrote:Why not RV for Real Vinicola?
jdaw1 wrote:RV = Rebello Valente

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 19:18 Mon 05 Sep 2016

I'm less convinced by the idea of complete overhaul. I would stay with Mz, for example. For Real Vinicola while I'm OK with RVi, I would suggest an alternative not proposed of RVn, on the basis that we seem to have mostly select next/later consonant rather than vowels to date.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 19:34 Mon 05 Sep 2016

Martinez: Alex wants change. Glenn and I tolerate it. Phil opposes.

RVn: opinions?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 21:45 Mon 05 Sep 2016

Any objection to Ps = Quinta do Passadouro (whether or not made by Niepoort)?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by flash_uk » 23:11 Mon 05 Sep 2016

jdaw1 wrote:Martinez: Alex wants change. Glenn and I tolerate it. Phil opposes.

RVn: opinions?
I'm with Phil on the Martinez point. Just because M is free doesn't mean it must be used. When I read Mz I immediately recognise which shipper is being referenced. If I read M, I would need to think about it for a moment.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 04:55 Tue 06 Sep 2016

jdaw1 wrote:Any objection to Ps = Quinta do Passadouro (whether or not made by Niepoort)?
My familiarity with Passadouro ends basically with the name.

If it produced Port on its own, then Ps seems fine.

But when produced by Niepoort, it should be NiPs for those vintages.

I don't think Ps should be used for both.
Last edited by Glenn E. on 05:00 Tue 06 Sep 2016, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 05:00 Tue 06 Sep 2016

PhilW wrote:I'm less convinced by the idea of complete overhaul. I would stay with Mz, for example. For Real Vinicola while I'm OK with RVi, I would suggest an alternative not proposed of RVn, on the basis that we seem to have mostly select next/later consonant rather than vowels to date.
I do understand the desire to keep what works, and am fine with Mz. I'm really only in favor of breaking with tradition when doing so provides additional clarity or better standardization. Mz -> M really does neither.

RVi and RVn are equally fine to me now that I've been reminded of RV.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 09:33 Tue 06 Sep 2016

I'm happy with RVn, Ps and the continued use of Mz (the latter being intuitive) but would then prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.

I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
Top Ports in 2018 (so far): Niepoort VV (1960's Bottling), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994 and San Leonardo Very Old White (Bottled 2018)
2017 Ports of the year: Fonseca 1927 and Quinta do Noval 1927

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 09:42 Tue 06 Sep 2016

AHB wrote:I'm happy with RVn, Ps and the continued use of Mz (the latter being intuitive)
RVn: decided. Ps: decided. Mz: unchanged (good).
AHB wrote:I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
Was Passadouro part of Niepoort’s full-declaration blends? If so, I could support NiP.

Should pre-Symington Vesuvio be differently abbreviated to Symington Vesuvio? If not, can the wine made from Quinta do Passadouro grapes be called Quinta do Passadouro = Ps, irrespective of whether the people around the lagares were employees of Ferreira / Symington / Graham / Niepoort?
AHB wrote:prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.
B or Bu: Other opinions?

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 14:21 Tue 06 Sep 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
AHB wrote:I'd also prefer to use NiPs for the times when Niepoort vinified the Ps ports.
Was Passadouro part of Niepoort’s full-declaration blends? If so, I could support NiP.
Although I can see the argument to keep the abbreviation the same in both cases (hence Ps and NiPs), I appreciate the argument for brevity so am also ok with Ps and NiP.
jdaw1 wrote:Should pre-Symington Vesuvio be differently abbreviated to Symington Vesuvio? If not, can the wine made from Quinta do Passadouro grapes be called Quinta do Passadouro = Ps, irrespective of whether the people around the lagares were employees of Ferreira / Symington / Graham / Niepoort?
Although there are a number of options for this, I would suggest that the way the wine is presented on the label is the key for our use. There are essentially three cases:
1. Where the wine is independently released by the quinta, e.g. Quinta do Infantando
2. Where the wine is released and is presented as from the Quinta, even though owned by a major house, e.g. Quinta do Vesuvio; where the maker is mentioned on the label, but not as highly promonent.
3. Where the wine is released and is presented as from the House and Quinta, e.g. Warre Quinta da Cavadinha or Croft da Roeda

Currently, whether intentional or not, we have mostly followed the labels, thus I, V and WC. I would suggest sticking to that premise, unless good reason to do otherwise. The same applies to brands from houses, such as "F. Martins" which is a brand of vintage port made by Hutcheson, for which I would expect the abbreviation to be FM, rather than HFM, and the same for BoBs.

To answer your question re:Passadouro directly, given the currently label I would expect Ps; if Niepoort had previously owned/received grapes from this Quinta and created a single Quinta wine with it, then if they presented it as "Quinta do Passadouro" with "created and bottled by Niepoort" I would go with Ps; if they presented it as "Niepoort's Quinta do Passadouro" (all in similar size font) then it would be NiP/NiPs.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 14:27 Tue 06 Sep 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
AHB wrote:prefer to have Bu for Burmester as I find this more intuitive than B.
B or Bu: Other opinions?
Happy with either.

BTW, I don't believe that there is any difference between Offley (O) and Offley Boa Vista (OBV), except that some labellers have shortened Offley Boa Vista to Offley on their labels.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 14:28 Tue 06 Sep 2016

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 01:46 Wed 07 Sep 2016

Based on those labels, I'd say Ps. All of those seem to fall under Phil's option #2. (All 5 pictures on WineSearcher do as well, at least one of which overlaps with these.)
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by DRT » 01:09 Thu 08 Sep 2016

PhilW wrote:BTW, I don't believe that there is any difference between Offley (O) and Offley Boa Vista (OBV), except that some labellers have shortened Offley Boa Vista to Offley on their labels.
This is incorrect. One vintage from the 1980s exists where two wines were produced from the same vintage ("Offley" and "Offley Boa Vista"), both using grapes from the Quinta.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by idj123 » 13:15 Fri 09 Sep 2016

I see we have settled on Mz with which I concur. I would prefer B for Burmester but more ambivalent on this one. I note we don't seem to have covered Quinta do Vallado? Have had some lovely aged tawnies from the producer (although they have produced some VPs).

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