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jdaw1
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“But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by jdaw1 »

ADV wrote:But that is a different Quinta do Silval
Which that? Not a “that† different to
as Magalhães is mentioned on their website.

The list of names, still not yet including Derek’s extras as I really ought to be doing something else right now.
Last edited by jdaw1 on 22:06 Fri 28 Mar 2008, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: “But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by DRT »

jdaw1 wrote:
ADV wrote:But that is a different Quinta do Silval
Which that? Not a “that† different to
as Magalhães is mentioned on their website.
Here on http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopforum
Mario Ferreira wrote:
Al B. wrote:[...] that the Noval Silval VP is made from grapes bought in from many different sources and - I assume - possibly also from grapes from the Noval vineyard that didn't make it into the Noval wines. [....]
Alex - I believe this is accurate. :)

Ok, these are my 2 :twocents:
The way I understand it is that Silval by itself it's just a brand that belongs to Quinta-do-Noval.

It happens that Quinta-do-Noval owns a small plot inside the Quinta-do-Silval area. Even today this happens to be a fact.

The brand Silval was registered by the Noval owners (Cristiano van Zeller) in the past and that had happened several years before Quinta-do-Silval itself started bottling their own Ports. At that time, Mr Carlos Magalhães (owner of Quinta-do-Silval) is main wine activity was producing & buying grapes and also selling bulk wines. "Branding" then, was not a major concern for Mr Magalhães himself.

The very first Port that Mr Carlos Magalhães (owner of Quinta-do-Silval) has bottled, was a LBV 1999 (bottled in 2003?) and their first Vintage was the 2000 (bottled in 2002). Since the Silval brand was previously taken by Noval, the Magalhães family, owners of Quinta-do-Silval, had to come up with a different brand for their own Ports, which ended up by being Magalhães Ports. :)

In conclusion, nowadays the wines branded Magalhães Ports have the following information (quoted below) placed at the bottom of the label and in small printing (I'm reading it from a genuine label right now):
Created, Produced and Bottled
by
Carlos Magalhães
Quinta do Silval
5085 - Vale de Mendiz

.
Mario is a man who's knowledge of the Douro region and it's history I trust implicitly. I think we need the following entries in the index:

Noval Silval
Quinta do Noval (Quinta do Silval)
Magalhães (Quinta do Noval)

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Post by DRT »

I just remembered something that I have been told previously. Qunita do Noval use 2 separate principle brands for all of the ports they produce. These are:
  • Quinta do Noval - for wine made entirely from the Quinta's grapes:
    • Quinta do Noval Vintage Port; and,
    • Quinta do Noval Nacional Vintage Port
  • Noval - for wines made from blends containing other grapes, such as:
    • Noval Unfiltered LBV;
    • Noval Tawny;
    • Noval Ruby
    • Noval Colhieta; and,
    • Noval Silval Vintage Port
The only wines that appear to buck this trend are the Qunita do Noval Quinta do Silval and Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco ports uncovered by ADV. However, I believe, the plots of land from which these wines were produced were at the time they were made entirely within the boundaries of Quinta do Noval, so they comply with the brand guidelines stated above.

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Alex Bridgeman
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Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Trying, as always, to make life as easy as possible for the people who are actually doing the work to make this project happen, let me try and summarise the conclusions that I thought we had reached for the naming of ports:

1) Shippers who declare will be named as set out on the port labels
2) We will NOT include ANY UK merchants who either relabelled a shipper's blend OR created their own blend. This will be carried forward to Part 2 of Project Derek.
3) Quintas will be listed as shippers where a single quinta wine was declared, whether as an independent declaration or by a larger shipper who may or may not have owned the quinta at the time of the harvest. The shipper's name will NOT be shown alongside the name of the quinta to prevent the confusion of history. (This will be carried forward to Part 3 of Project Derek.)
4) Where a Quinta name is used by a shipper as a brand name or a marketing name, eg. as a second label port, this will be included on the list. For example, Grahams Malvedos or Noval Silval

There were some other specific questions that appeared this afternoon and I will do my best to answer them when I get some time tomorrow morning.

Alex
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Post by DRT »

Are we going to concern ourselves with the fact that Ramos Pinto is actually Ramos-Pinto?

Derek
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jdaw1
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Re: “But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by jdaw1 »

Derek T. wrote:Noval Silval
Quinta do Noval (Quinta do Silval)
Magalhães (Quinta do Noval)
OK, so with this new information I think we need:
  • Quinta do Noval (produced from only the Noval vineyard)
  • Noval (Noval’s main brand, also using other grapes);
  • Noval Silval (Noval’s secondary brand);
  • Noval Nacional (Noval’s expensive brand);
  • (Quinta do?) Noval Quinta do Silval (produced only from the Noval’s corner of the Silval vineyard);
  • Magalhães (from the man who owns the non-Noval part of Silval).
No trouble at all.
1. Please, have I—at last—understood?
2. And if I have, should it be “Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval† or “Noval Quinta do Silval†? And if so, which is preferred: with or without the “Quinta do†?
3. And should we fold together the “Quinta do Noval† and “Noval†, as only one is used for VP, and only for for non-VP port types.

Image
Last edited by jdaw1 on 23:26 Thu 27 Mar 2008, edited 5 times in total.
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Yes, definitely “Ramos-Pinto†

Post by jdaw1 »

Derek T. wrote:Are we going to concern ourselves with the fact that Ramos Pinto is actually Ramos-Pinto?
I am embarrassed that I have hitherto failed to notice the hyphen. Yes, definitely “Ramos-Pinto†. {Sackcloth and ashes emoticon}
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Re: “But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by DRT »

jdaw1 wrote:
Derek T. wrote:Noval Silval
Quinta do Noval (Quinta do Silval)
Magalhães (Quinta do Noval)
OK, so with this new information I think we need:
  • Quinta do Noval (produced from only the Noval vineyard)
  • Noval (Noval’s main brand, also using other grapes);
  • Noval Silval (Noval’s secondary brand);
  • Noval Nacional (Noval’s expensive brand);
  • (Quinta do?) Noval Quinta do Silval (produced only from the Noval’s corner of the Silval vineyard);
  • Magalhães (from the man who owns the non-Noval part of Silval).
No trouble at all. Please, have I—at last—understood? And if I have, should it be “Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval† or “Noval Quinta do Silval†?
Jdaw,

In a list solely dedicated to VP, which wine(s) would be list under:

Quinta do Noval; and,
Noval

I think the simple Noval is redundant in this list as it will never include a VP.

If we ignore the Q d Silval and Q d Marco anomolies for one moment, I think the three principal VPs produced by Noval today need to appear together in the list with the following display names in this order:

Quinta do Noval
Quinta do Noval Nacional
Noval Silval

This would require the sort names to be:

Noval
Noval Nacional
Noval Silval

Derek
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Re: Yes, definitely “Ramos-Pinto†

Post by DRT »

jdaw1 wrote:
Derek T. wrote:Are we going to concern ourselves with the fact that Ramos Pinto is actually Ramos-Pinto?
I am embarrassed that I have hitherto failed to notice the hyphen. Yes, definitely “Ramos-Pinto†. {Sackcloth and ashes emoticon}
I have been wanting to post that question since we started this process but have resisted on the basis that the longer you went without noticing the more ashes you would require for your emoticon.

{very smug emoticon}
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Re: “But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by jdaw1 »

Derek T. wrote:If we ignore the Q d Silval and Q d Marco anomolies for one moment, I think the three principal VPs produced by Noval today need to appear together in the list with the following display names in this order:

Quinta do Noval
Quinta do Noval Nacional
Noval Silval

This would require the sort names to be:

Noval
Noval Nacional
Noval Silval
Very good. But please don’t ignore the anomalies: post the full list just so that it’s very clear.

(And I am going to introduce a notes field, to help avoid errors.)
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Re: “But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by DRT »

jdaw1 wrote:
Derek T. wrote:If we ignore the Q d Silval and Q d Marco anomolies for one moment, I think the three principal VPs produced by Noval today need to appear together in the list with the following display names in this order:

Quinta do Noval
Quinta do Noval Nacional
Noval Silval

This would require the sort names to be:

Noval
Noval Nacional
Noval Silval
Very good. But please don’t ignore the anomalies: post the full list just so that it’s very clear.
Progress.

Now, moving on to the anomilys:

DisplayName:
  • Quinta do Noval
  • Quinta do Noval Nacional
  • Noval Silval
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta de Marco
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta do Silval
SortName:
  • Noval
  • Noval Nacional
  • Noval Silval
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta de Marco
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta do Silval
OK?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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jdaw1
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Re: “But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by jdaw1 »

Derek T. wrote:DisplayName:
  • Quinta do Noval
  • Quinta do Noval Nacional
  • Noval Silval
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta de Marco
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta do Silval
When you say “Marco†, is it a humorous reference to “Magalhães†? Or have I missed something?
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Some off-topic arguing split into new thread OTBPGCBA?.

Post by jdaw1 »

Some off-topic arguing split into new thread OTBPGCBA?.
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Re: “But that is a different Quinta do Silval†?

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

jdaw1 wrote:
Derek T. wrote:DisplayName:
  • Quinta do Noval
  • Quinta do Noval Nacional
  • Noval Silval
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta de Marco
  • .
  • .
  • .
  • Quinta do Silval
When you say “Marco†, is it a humorous reference to “Magalhães†? Or have I missed something?
You've missed something. On FTLOP, Andy has posted some pictures of a bottle he bought that was Noval Quinta do Marco, being some VP that Noval made in pre-AXA days from grapes purely sourced from the Quinta do Marco vineyards.

Using the logic I set out in my summary above and which Derek followed in his guidance for Noval, this should appear in our listing as "Quinta do Marco" with no association to the person who just happened to buy the grapes at the time (such associations to be established in Part 3 of Project Derek).

Have all other open questions now been answered?
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Post by uncle tom »

The Noval shop in VNG is selling a Q. Marco 1999 as well..

Tom
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Re: Sources of Berrys’ Own Selection ports

Post by jdaw1 »

[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=12002#12002]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:
In an email to Tom Cave, jdaw1 wrote:On that bulletin board a follow-up question has been asked. Are Berrys' Selections a relabelling of the original blender's wine, or are they -- in some way -- different wines?

Again, thank you for your help with this historical digging.
Tom Cave wrote:They wouldn't be ''relabellings'' necessarily - each vintage we taste a range from different suppliers and select a wine that is most suitable to carry the Berrys' label.
As yet no reply sent. Unless there’s anything else, I’ll just send thanks.
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Re: Sources of Berrys’ Own Selection ports

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

jdaw1 wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=12002#12002]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:
In an email to Tom Cave, jdaw1 wrote:On that bulletin board a follow-up question has been asked. Are Berrys' Selections a relabelling of the original blender's wine, or are they -- in some way -- different wines?

Again, thank you for your help with this historical digging.
Tom Cave wrote:They wouldn't be ''relabellings'' necessarily - each vintage we taste a range from different suppliers and select a wine that is most suitable to carry the Berrys' label.
As yet no reply sent. Unless there’s anything else, I’ll just send thanks.
Nothing else from me. Interestingly, I've been told in the past by Berry's that the wine in their bottles is exactly the same blend as made by the shipper - that you get the same port in a bottle of Berry 1983 as you do in a Warre 1983, for example. While this doesn't conflict with Tom's response, I'm not sure it's entirely consistent either.

Perhaps a theme to carry forward to a future tasting...
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Post by Andy Velebil »

Here is some info to help out with the dreaded Noval/Silval/Marco issues

Regarding the 1983 Noval Quinta do Marco
Well... I did get a chance to briefly talk to Christian Seely today.

He is indeed familiar with the Quinta do Marco bottlings. He mentioned that Noval would occaisonaly produce these bottlings and that Quinta do Marco is a sub-vineyard within Quinta do Noval. He also mentioned that these bottlings were lighter, easier drinking wines that are ment for earlier consumption... in other words... drink up.
Regarding the 1983 Noval Qiunta do Silval
It happens that Quinta-do-Noval owns a small plot inside the Quinta-do-Silval area. Even today this happens to be a fact.

The brand Silval was registered by the Noval owners (Cristiano van Zeller) in the past and that had happened several years before Quinta-do-Silval itself started bottling their own Ports.
read the debate here (if its ok to link it, due to the issue at hand) http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopfo ... &sk=t&sd=a
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Post by KillerB »

Andy - we have no issues with links. This is particularly useful so thank you.
Port is basically a red drink
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jdaw1
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Post by jdaw1 »

Extracted from the recently-updated list above:
  • Abbrev.; Sortable; Display Name
  • Mg; Magalhaes; Magalhães;
  • NN; Nacional; Quinta do Noval Nacional;
  • N; Noval; Quinta do Noval;
  • NSv; Noval 2; Noval Silval;
  • NM; Noval Marco; Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco;
  • NS; Noval Silval; Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval;
The only outstanding question is whether Nacional should sort with Noval, or with the Na’s. I.e., before or after Niepoort?
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The table of names is starting to gather ISWN-P #s.

Post by jdaw1 »

A very frightening list of wine producers in Portugal, and their ISWN-P numbers (International Standard Wine Number - Producer). The table of names is starting to gather ISWN-Ps.

Why, for example, are there both Borges and Borges & Irmao?
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Post by uncle tom »

I did a list a fair while back of vintage port brands known to exist (or have existed) and came to 173, but I now know of quite a few more...

Tom
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Post by Alex Bridgeman »

jdaw1 wrote:Extracted from the recently-updated list above:
  • Abbrev.; Sortable; Display Name
  • Mg; Magalhaes; Magalhães;
  • NN; Nacional; Quinta do Noval Nacional;
  • N; Noval; Quinta do Noval;
  • NSv; Noval 2; Noval Silval;
  • NM; Noval Marco; Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco;
  • NS; Noval Silval; Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval;
The only outstanding question is whether Nacional should sort with Noval, or with the Na’s. I.e., before or after Niepoort?
My preference would be for the Nacional to sort with the Noval rather than alphabetically.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Post by DRT »

AHB wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Extracted from the recently-updated list above:
  • Abbrev.; Sortable; Display Name
  • Mg; Magalhaes; Magalhães;
  • NN; Nacional; Quinta do Noval Nacional;
  • N; Noval; Quinta do Noval;
  • NSv; Noval 2; Noval Silval;
  • NM; Noval Marco; Quinta do Noval Quinta do Marco;
  • NS; Noval Silval; Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval;
The only outstanding question is whether Nacional should sort with Noval, or with the Na’s. I.e., before or after Niepoort?
My preference would be for the Nacional to sort with the Noval rather than alphabetically.
I have a very strong preference to have Nacional appear with at least the woud Noval in from of it. I have a less strong preference for it to have the words "Quinta do Noval" in front of it. These preferences relate to display names.

Derek
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TN index update which is being merged with the port names …

Post by jdaw1 »

TN index update, which, for the first time, is being merged with the port names spreadsheet. Ouch!

Croft Distinction Porto Special Reserve: does anybody have a (complete-ish) list of the names of this type of port?

• How to name of Tesco VP (Symington)? This year Symington, next year TFP? What do we call the ‘house’?

Honorable Tawny (Sogevinus)? Even without the typos.

Ramos Pinto Lagrima White Port: list of white names?
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