The Scottish Independence Question

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Alex Bridgeman
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The Scottish Independence Question

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Here there is considerable discussion on the question the Scots (or, more correctly some of the people living in Scotland in mid-September) will be asking themselves in about 5 weeks.

I've separated the continuing discussion into a new thread in the expectation that there will be more to say over the next few weeks.

To start off, I have some questions I was asked by my children over dinner this evening - and which I struggled to answer:
- When is the vote happening?
- Who is being allowed to vote?
- Why is this any different from the 1992(?) separation of the Czech Republic and Slovakia?
- Why should an 18 and a 20 year-old English child care what will be the outcome of the vote?

Answers I can pass on to my two surprisingly aware children over dinner tomorrow would be welcome.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by AW77 »

The vote will take place on the 18th of September 2014.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by LGTrotter »

AHB wrote:- When is the vote happening?
- Who is being allowed to vote?
- Why is this any different from the 1992(?) separation of the Czech Republic and Slovakia?
- Why should an 18 and a 20 year-old English child care what will be the outcome of the vote?

Answers I can pass on to my two surprisingly aware children over dinner tomorrow would be welcome.
-18th September.
-Not sure, I assume the same people who can vote in the Scottish parliamentary elections.
-Oh God, I don't know stop asking questions and eat your dinner.
-Because if Scotland becomes an independent country then there will be a new political landscape in the rump of the UK. And a new set of international relationships to negotiate. And the economic stuff is kind of big too. And there's the stuff about water. And there will be a step change in devolution for the rest of the UK, Wales springs to mind, London as the new Singapore anyone? And David Cameron will be beaten to death by his own party. And the Labour Party will be mostly over. But basically, no, nothing to bother or interest the average yoof.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by AW77 »

I think all British nationals over 16 living in Scotland are entitled to vote. (So Derek would not be entitled to cast his ballot.)
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

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AW77 wrote:I think all British nationals over 16 living in Scotland are entitled to vote. (So Derek would not be entitled to cast his ballot.)
Good point, I forgot about the 16 year olds.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

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- When is the vote happening?

18th September 2014.

- Who is being allowed to vote?

Residents of Scotland who are 16 or over, not in prison and not insane.

- Why is this any different from the 1992(?) separation of the Czech Republic and Slovakia?

It isn't. Apart from the fact that it is.

- Why should an 18 and a 20 year-old English child care what will be the outcome of the vote?

Because they will end up living in a country with no credible* parliamentary opposition for the best part of their adult life.

Other things to consider, in order of importance:

1. The UK (Team GB) will never win at Curling again.

2. The UK (rump) will carry a monkey on its back for decades. Read http://www.jdawiseman.com for more details.

3. Contagion. Scotland will be followed by Cornwall, Yorkshire, Wales, Mercia, Norfolk, Kensington & Chelsea, Saffron Walden, etc. Soon all that will be left of the UK will be Northern Ireland, and they are really p()p at Curling.

4. You will need a passport and a Visa to visit the Edinburgh Festival.

5. The UK (rump) will carry a monkey on its back for decades. Read http://www.jdawiseman.com for more details.

6. Pensions. Don't get me started.

7. Oil. Strike that, the Yanks own it anyway.

8. Did I mention Curling?


If that doesn't convince them I don't know what will.



*this is not a reference to the current opposition.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by djewesbury »

Scotland will not be able to borrow, the banks will leave or go bust, lots of people will lose their jobs, the Nats will go on a populist spending spree whilst cutting all forms of corporate tax in a race to the bottom, the country will be bust in approx 5-10 yrs. Why hasn't the question of how Scotland can be expected to be able to borrow been addressed, when it will have no bank of last resort and when we still don't know what the currency will be? Why have no credible economic or fiscal plans been put forward? Why is this all just about emotive nationalist tub thumping?

Sorry. As many questions as answers.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

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djewesbury wrote:Scotland will not be able to borrow, the banks will leave or go bust, lots of people will lose their jobs, the Nats will go on a populist spending spree whilst cutting all forms of corporate tax in a race to the bottom, the country will be bust in approx 5-10 yrs. Why hasn't the question of how Scotland can be expected to be able to borrow been addressed, when it will have no bank of last resort and when we still don't know what the currency will be? Why have no credible economic or fiscal plans been put forward? Why is this all just about emotive nationalist tub thumping?

Sorry. As many questions as answers.
Chin up, goth.

I think Berlin's dark heart must be getting to you. All this stuff will probably not happen, instead we will be overwhelmed by some unexpected catastrophe.

But the polls are narrowing...
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The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by djewesbury »

Yes yes. I just hate blood and soil nationalism more than anything else. I've already seen how it's poisoned the debate in Scotland. People have been attacking critics of independence for speaking on the basis of their failing to pass the tartan and shortbread test ("and where were you born?"). Even formerly respectable authors have been doing it: Alasdair Gray published a scabrous article called 'Settlers and Colonists' which was basically attacking those people who've lived in Scotland for decades and made it their home for not being Scottish enough. The Yes campaign, funnily enough, is divisive (you don't say) and I'm shocked that this kind of trashy populism gets so much airtime. A German professor at St. Andrew's made a comment about the dangers of nationalism during a commencement address at their graduation ceremony, referring to the lessons of German history, and an online campaign of the most disgusting kind was launched to get her sacked and to make the university issue an apology. There are some serious knuckledraggers out there; this is not a harmless or irrelevant question.

Rant over.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

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Scabrous. :GoldStar:
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

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LGTrotter wrote:Scabrous. :GoldStar:
:blushes:
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by LGTrotter »

The No campaign seems to have a bit of an issue with women, see JK, (no Daniel, I don't mean the return of the space cowboy) which gives me some hope. They generally do the right thing at elections. Things like turn up and vote.

I meant the Yes campaign. Grumble wheeze coughs...
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

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djewesbury wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:Scabrous. :GoldStar:
:blushes:
Yeah right, you've been at that dictionary all night looking for a new word.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by djewesbury »

That word just fell out of my skull like grain out of a hopper.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

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Sure, why not...
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

djewesbury wrote:Scotland will not be able to borrow, the banks will leave or go bust, lots of people will lose their jobs, the Nats will go on a populist spending spree whilst cutting all forms of corporate tax in a race to the bottom, the country will be bust in approx 5-10 yrs. Why hasn't the question of how Scotland can be expected to be able to borrow been addressed, when it will have no bank of last resort and when we still don't know what the currency will be? Why have no credible economic or fiscal plans been put forward? Why is this all just about emotive nationalist tub thumping?

Sorry. As many questions as answers.
But why would this happen? It hasn't happened with previous separations of components of countries whether peaceful (Czech, Slovakia) or otherwise (Former Yugoslav Republics)?

And the rump of the country can be protected in the way suggested in the paper by jdawiseman.

So far I have seen no decisive reasons why someone who is enfranchised should vote one way or the other. It seems to me that the capiagns can be summed as:

VOTE YES 'cos wure bluudy Scootush and we heet them Sas'nachs fur their oppression of oor prood cuntrigh. Conveniently forgetting it was the Scootish who lobbied for the Union because the country was bankrupt when their Empire building went rather wrong, and when the country became unified it was under a Scottish King; or

VOTE NO because it's the best thing for us all.

So what do I tell my kids - who frighteningly have friends whose younger siblings intend to vote!
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

And another thing - is it really any person resident in Scotland on September 18th and registered to vote who will be allowed to vote? Is there no nationality qualification of any sort?
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by jdaw1 »

Does the original poster love me enough to fix the spelling error in the thread title?
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by djewesbury »

AHB wrote:
djewesbury wrote:Scotland will not be able to borrow, the banks will leave or go bust, lots of people will lose their jobs, the Nats will go on a populist spending spree whilst cutting all forms of corporate tax in a race to the bottom, the country will be bust in approx 5-10 yrs. Why hasn't the question of how Scotland can be expected to be able to borrow been addressed, when it will have no bank of last resort and when we still don't know what the currency will be? Why have no credible economic or fiscal plans been put forward? Why is this all just about emotive nationalist tub thumping?
But why would this happen? It hasn't happened with previous separations of components of countries whether peaceful (Czech, Slovakia) or otherwise (Former Yugoslav Republics)?
Slovakia was in a seriously parlous state after the separation. And the economies of the former Yugoslav Republics were each looted by the corrupt former elites who sold all the state assets to themselves once the writing was on the wall. Have we any examples of rich nations seceding without bloodshed and without a transition from dictatorship? I don't think the former Warsaw Pact nations are good analogies for what we may see happen here.
AHB wrote:And the rump of the country can be protected in the way suggested in the paper by jdawiseman.
I'm not sure that that 'protection' is exactly watertight, the way I read it.
AHB wrote:So far I have seen no decisive reasons why someone who is enfranchised should vote one way or the other. It seems to me that the capiagns can be summed as:

VOTE YES 'cos wure bluudy Scootush and we heet them Sas'nachs fur their oppression of oor prood cuntrigh. Conveniently forgetting it was the Scootish who lobbied for the Union because the country was bankrupt when their Empire building went rather wrong, and when the country became unified it was under a Scottish King
Quite! Though i think one of your dialect spellings is perhaps a little unfortunate. Anyway yes, perhaps when Salmond is crowned King he can take the name Darien I.
AHB wrote:And another thing - is it really any person resident in Scotland on September 18th and registered to vote who will be allowed to vote? Is there no nationality qualification of any sort?
I believe the nationality qualification is the same as for a general election. So there will be some people resident there who would be eligible to vote in a European (or local?) election but would not have a vote in this. Nothing out of the ordinary there..

I genuinely believe that a Yes vote is not arguable because there has been no case put for it. I think that a No vote is thus a default. It's not a question of choosing between equal things, the blue sweet or the red sweet. It's a case of changing everything or not changing everything. There has been no convincing argument put forward for why this needs to be done in the way it is proposed it be done. Therefore it should not be done. There are other things that can be done, which do not require secession. In fact, if you subtract the anti-English emotive nationalistic nonsense from this, there is nothing that the Nats are advocating that could not be achieved within a properly Federalised UK. They should argue for that, because that would benefit everyone, and there wouldn't be this immense, unquantifiable, unmeasurable unknown of 'What will we do tomorrow, Alex?'
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

jdaw1 wrote:Does the original poster love me enough to fix the spelling error in the thread title?
Yes he does, and has done so.
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Re: The Scottish Indpendence Question

Post by DRT »

djewesbury wrote:i think one of your dialect spellings is perhaps a little unfortunate.'
Indeed. I'm a bit surprised that one got through the profanity filter :shock:
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Re: The Scottish Independence Question

Post by djewesbury »

DRT wrote:
djewesbury wrote:i think one of your dialect spellings is perhaps a little unfortunate.'
Indeed. I'm a bit surprised that one got through the profanity filter :shock:
Which one do you mean Derek?
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Re: The Scottish Independence Question

Post by AW77 »

There is a special site by the BBC on the Scottish Referendum:
http://www.bbc.com/news/16630456
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Re: The Scottish Independence Question

Post by LGTrotter »

I am reliably informed by a correspondent in the borders that Scotland will not vote for independence.

I think we can relax.
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Re: The Scottish Independence Question

Post by DRT »

Posted on Facebook today...
Screen Shot 2015-05-17 at 20.42.50.png
Screen Shot 2015-05-17 at 20.42.50.png (260.35 KiB) Viewed 7357 times
That's farther south than William Wallace managed :shock:
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