TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Organise events to meet up and drink Port.
Post Reply
User avatar
Doggett
Graham’s Malvedos 1996
Posts: 779
Joined: 17:40 Sun 20 Sep 2015
Location: Weymouth
Contact:

TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by Doggett » 15:27 Thu 15 Oct 2020

To give Neil a small break from his regular updates...

There is a TFP virtual tasting with wines available on November 6th

https://www.67pallmall.com/events/fladg ... eca-croft/

User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Fonseca 1963
Posts: 12828
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by Alex Bridgeman » 18:50 Thu 15 Oct 2020

An interesting choice of wines given the heading of "Taylors/Fonseca/Croft", particularly the Vargellas.

2015 Fonseca Quinta do Panascal Vintage Port (Bottled 2004)
2011 Taylor’s Quinta de Vargellas (Bottled 2004)
2017 Fonseca Vintage Port
2017 Taylors Vintage Port
NV Fonseca 20 Year Old Tawny Port
1970 Taylor’s Single Harvest
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

nac
Warre’s Otima 10 year old Tawny
Posts: 570
Joined: 14:21 Fri 16 Dec 2016
Location: Kent & London
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by nac » 19:33 Thu 15 Oct 2020

AHB wrote:
18:50 Thu 15 Oct 2020
An interesting choice of wines given the heading of "Taylors/Fonseca/Croft", particularly the Vargellas.

2015 Fonseca Quinta do Panascal Vintage Port (Bottled 2004)
2011 Taylor’s Quinta de Vargellas (Bottled 2004)
2017 Fonseca Vintage Port
2017 Taylors Vintage Port
NV Fonseca 20 Year Old Tawny Port
1970 Taylor’s Single Harvest
I’m assuming the Panascal is actually 2004 (bottled 2015) and the Vargellas is 2004 (bottled 2011), but will check...

nac
Warre’s Otima 10 year old Tawny
Posts: 570
Joined: 14:21 Fri 16 Dec 2016
Location: Kent & London
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by nac » 10:52 Mon 19 Oct 2020

nac wrote:
19:33 Thu 15 Oct 2020
AHB wrote:
18:50 Thu 15 Oct 2020
An interesting choice of wines given the heading of "Taylors/Fonseca/Croft", particularly the Vargellas.

2015 Fonseca Quinta do Panascal Vintage Port (Bottled 2004)
2011 Taylor’s Quinta de Vargellas (Bottled 2004)
2017 Fonseca Vintage Port
2017 Taylors Vintage Port
NV Fonseca 20 Year Old Tawny Port
1970 Taylor’s Single Harvest
I’m assuming the Panascal is actually 2004 (bottled 2015) and the Vargellas is 2004 (bottled 2011), but will check...
Update - Vargellas and Panascal both 2004, released 2011 and 2015 respectively.

User avatar
JacobH
Dow 1980
Posts: 2650
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by JacobH » 16:10 Wed 04 Nov 2020

Is anyone else having a go at this one? I appreciate that it was rather aggressively priced, but I decided to have a go since I’d like to try the two 2017s, the 1970 colheita and the 2004 Panascal (which, strangely, I’ve missed before). And, of course, there isn’t much else on offer for evening entertainment after tonight...
Image

nac
Warre’s Otima 10 year old Tawny
Posts: 570
Joined: 14:21 Fri 16 Dec 2016
Location: Kent & London
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by nac » 16:42 Wed 04 Nov 2020

The time doesn't work for me. I'll going to wait until the video is available and then watch it (possibly with some of the wines).

Would be interesting to hear your feedback.

User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Fonseca 1963
Posts: 12828
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by Alex Bridgeman » 13:08 Thu 05 Nov 2020

I decided to go for it too, mostly because there are three wines I've not tried before and will be unlikely to buy.
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

User avatar
JacobH
Dow 1980
Posts: 2650
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by JacobH » 22:16 Thu 05 Nov 2020

AHB wrote:
13:08 Thu 05 Nov 2020
I decided to go for it too, mostly because there are three wines I've not tried before and will be unlikely to buy.
Hmm... the two 2017s and the 1970 colheita? I’d be intrigued if it was another combination!
Image

User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Fonseca 1963
Posts: 12828
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by Alex Bridgeman » 22:55 Thu 05 Nov 2020

JacobH wrote:
22:16 Thu 05 Nov 2020
AHB wrote:
13:08 Thu 05 Nov 2020
I decided to go for it too, mostly because there are three wines I've not tried before and will be unlikely to buy.
Hmm... the two 2017s and the 1970 colheita? I’d be intrigued if it was another combination!
The chance to try the '17s again having not tasted them since last year was part of the appeal, but the main reason was the chance to try the two 2004s (neither of which I recall having tasted) and the 1970 was what persuaded me.
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

User avatar
JacobH
Dow 1980
Posts: 2650
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by JacobH » 23:03 Thu 05 Nov 2020

I hadn't tried the 2004s either until just last week when I saw the Vargellas being sold by the glass at Rules- a funny coincidence to get a chance to try it twice in short succession having missed it since its release!
Image

nac
Warre’s Otima 10 year old Tawny
Posts: 570
Joined: 14:21 Fri 16 Dec 2016
Location: Kent & London
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by nac » 23:07 Fri 06 Nov 2020

How was the tasting?

User avatar
JacobH
Dow 1980
Posts: 2650
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by JacobH » 12:16 Sat 07 Nov 2020

It was fun, thanks, although personally, I would have preferred it had David Guimaraens pitched it at a slightly more advanced level than he did, especially as there was quite a lot of ground to cover if the purpose was to compare Taylor & Fonseca. This is not a complaint, however, since a lot of the questions were at quite a basic level!

A few things that I thought were interesting:
  • When describing the difference between Taylor & Fonseca, DG said that Fonseca should be structured, fruity, intense and rounded whilst Taylor is precise, elegant and floral with firm, fine tannins. I was struck that he didn’t mention other characteristics which are common with other wine makers describing their house styles (e.g. acidity or perceived sweetness) and that these appear to be the things he really looks for when making a wine.
  • He said that he is very interested in the quality of the aguardente since the government monopoly ended in 2000. He learnt wine-making in Australia when his dad had sent him there (on a one-way ticket!) when he left school. Apparently the Australian fortified wine-makers mocked him for the poor quality of spirit that the Portuguese producers had to use. He said that he thought that since 2000 the younger Vintage Ports are much more approachable because one doesn’t get the burning from the cheaper spirits. I guess this is another reason why the general quality of Port continues to increase.
  • He talked with great enthusiasm about what he described as “first-generation post-phylloxera vineyards” which he said were mostly the ones planted in the 1920s and 1930s with mixed vines, like the block which is used to make the Vargellas Vinha Velha VP. Although I can see there is a tasting note for it on :tpf:, I hadn’t realised he’d been making this Port since 1995.
  • He really seemed to talk with much greater enthusiasm about the Ruby Ports rather than the Tawny Ports. I got the sense that he is really proud of his 2011 VVVVP. On the other hand, most of the Taylor super-premium colheitas didn’t get a mention (beyond the one being tasted).
  • Trivially, I hadn’t really appreciated how Cima Corgo-based TFP is until he put out a slide with their vineyards marked. I think their only Quinta outside is Vargellas which is only just into the Douro Superior.
Of the wines, the 1970 Colheita was by far the best. It is really very good, although there was no aroma at all for the first 40 minutes after pouring. I was initially bitterly disappointed! It then suddenly opened up and was fantastic. AHB suggested this might be because the samples are bottled under argon by 67 Pall Mall. I don’t really know: of the dozen-or-so samples I’ve tried from them this is the only wine where this has really been an issue.

I also thought the 2017 Taylor VP was excellent: a clear preference to the 2017 Fonseca. Of the 2004s, I thought the Fonseca Qd Panascal edged it over the Taylor Qd Vargellas. The Fonseca 20-year-old tawny seemed a bit underwhelming to me.

I post my notes later on :tpf: but from my website:
Image

Glenn E.
Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
Posts: 3586
Joined: 22:27 Wed 09 Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by Glenn E. » 19:53 Sat 07 Nov 2020

An excellent review, thanks! You guys get all the good events over there... I wish there were similar events timed for US audiences.

Odd that DG says Taylor is elegant. I'm reasonably confident that I have never used that descriptor for a Taylor ruby Port at any level. Precise and floral, sure, but to me Taylor VPs are usually big bruisers with firm edges (which plays to the description of "precise") and big tannins. I wouldn't even describe very old Taylor VPs as elegant. That's just not at all the house style in my experience.

It doesn't really surprise me that he didn't talk much about their Colheitas, seeing as most of the current series came from Krohn despite what Adrian will try to tell you. My understanding is that 1964-1969 are all primarily, if not entirely Krohn Ports. As I recall Andy was told that the 1967 actually is a Taylor wine, but I don't believe that - it's at most a blend. I never heard anything about the 1970, so it's possible that one is actually a Taylor wine, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't also contain at least some stocks received when they purchased Krohn.
Glenn Elliott

User avatar
JacobH
Dow 1980
Posts: 2650
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: TFP @ 67 Pall Mall

Post by JacobH » 21:11 Sat 07 Nov 2020

Glenn E. wrote:
19:53 Sat 07 Nov 2020
An excellent review, thanks! You guys get all the good events over there... I wish there were similar events timed for US audiences.
Thanks! They’ll will probably put the video online at some point so you can re-live it if you have a spare hour and some appropriate Port!
Glenn E. wrote:
19:53 Sat 07 Nov 2020
Odd that DG says Taylor is elegant. I'm reasonably confident that I have never used that descriptor for a Taylor ruby Port at any level. Precise and floral, sure, but to me Taylor VPs are usually big bruisers with firm edges (which plays to the description of "precise") and big tannins. I wouldn't even describe very old Taylor VPs as elegant. That's just not at all the house style in my experience.
I thought that, too. But then I wondered if you had spent a life-time drinking Fonesca and Taylor Ports, your palate might end up towards the “bigger” end of the spectrum and so what seems to you as an elegant Port might be what someone else might think is quite a big wine?
Glenn E. wrote:
19:53 Sat 07 Nov 2020
It doesn't really surprise me that he didn't talk much about their Colheitas, seeing as most of the current series came from Krohn despite what Adrian will try to tell you. My understanding is that 1964-1969 are all primarily, if not entirely Krohn Ports. As I recall Andy was told that the 1967 actually is a Taylor wine, but I don't believe that - it's at most a blend. I never heard anything about the 1970, so it's possible that one is actually a Taylor wine, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't also contain at least some stocks received when they purchased Krohn.
That’s a fair point. It also occurs to me that the Taylor Fladgate Partnership actually makes very little tawny Port in general. Taylor has the full range of 10/20/30/40 YOs but Fonseca & Croft both only have a 10/20 YO. The only colheitas are the Taylor Single Harvests (which, effectively, seems to be being sold as a 50-year-old tawny) + the occasional oddity. You might expect someone who was really keen on tawny Ports to have produced a second 40-year-old and make the occasional young or middle-aged colheita. They surely have access to enough wine to do it...
Image

Post Reply