Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

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Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by jonker1541 »

Hi there,

I am currently in contact with the auctioneer of a big auction house. I messaged him that I felt they made a mistake in the description of a bottle of colheita. They clearly stated it was a 1979 colheita, and that it was 36 yo. I therefore assumed it to be bottled in 2015. However, the bottled stated it was bottled in 1988. I did not but the bottle BTW, but I still let them know about their mistake. However, they responded to me stating it is completely normal to state the age of a bottle of colheita like this. Apparently they always include the time in the bottle in the age of the port. I always figured there is no evolution of the port in the bottle, so this will be comparable to a 9 year old tawny. However, they are the ones selling massive amounts of port/wine, and I only drink the stuff, so I might be incorrect. What do you guys think?
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by DRT »

I agree that this is misleading if the description gives the impression the wine was recently bottled. However, if it is described as a 36 year old colheita bottled in 1988 then the description is accurate. From what you say this isn't the case so I would consider the auction catalogue to be at best incomplete and at worst intentionally misleading.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by jonker1541 »

Thanks for your reply.

Because I am traditionally a whisky drinker, I am even stricter than that. I felt it was a 9 yo colheita, that just hasn't been opened in the past 27 years. I draw the parallel with whisky because, like whisky, colheita doesn't age in the bottle, but only in the barrel. So a 12 year old bottle of Glenlivet that was bottled in the 60s is still 12 years old. Is it safe to assume the auctioneer is correct and using the description 36yo is not misleading, but somewhat normal in the world of buying/selling port?
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by PhilW »

DRT wrote:I agree that this is misleading if the description gives the impression the wine was recently bottled. However, if it is described as a 36 year old colheita bottled in 1988 then the description is accurate.
I think even that would be misleading. A bottle of 10yr old tawny bottled five years ago would not normally be described as a 15yr old tawny; it would still be a 10yr old tawny bottled in 2010. In this case therefore, while you could say "this 36 year old bottle" I think it could only really be described as a 1979 colheita bottled in 1988; anything else is potentially misleading. I *would* expect a "36 year old colheita" to have been bottled 36 years after the vintage to which it refers, BUT would also double check since the combination of age without specified year and use of term colheita is ambiguous and/or contradictory.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by PhilW »

jonker1541 wrote:Thanks for your reply.

Because I am traditionally a whisky drinker, I am even stricter than that. I felt it was a 9 yo colheita, that just hasn't been opened in the past 27 years. I draw the parallel with whisky because, like whisky, colheita doesn't age in the bottle, but only in the barrel. So a 12 year old bottle of Glenlivet that was bottled in the 60s is still 12 years old. Is it safe to assume the auctioneer is correct and using the description 36yo is not misleading, but somewhat normal in the world of buying/selling port?
Whisky and tawny descriptions could be considered as very close. A bottle of 20yr whisky would normally still be described as a 20yr old several years later, as would a 20yr tawny port. The same confusion you describe could occur with a bottle of 1982 whisky bottled in 1998; would this be a 16yr old, or would the whisky be 33 years old? The only way to be clear would be to say it was 1982 whisky bottled in 1998.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by DRT »

PhilW wrote:Whisky and tawny descriptions could be considered as very close. A bottle of 20yr whisky would normally still be described as a 20yr old several years later, as would a 20yr tawny port.
I completely disagree with what I think is the meaning behind this. Whisky is stable spirit. It does not evolve after bottling in any way. Port is not stable. A 20 year tawny will change in the bottle over time in a way that whisky never will. A 20 year old whisky will always taste like a 20 year old whisky. A 20 year old Port will only taste like a 20 year old Port for up to a decade, after which it will gradually fall apart. We cannot therefore apply the same principles to naming whisky and Port.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by PhilW »

DRT wrote:
PhilW wrote:Whisky and tawny descriptions could be considered as very close. A bottle of 20yr whisky would normally still be described as a 20yr old several years later, as would a 20yr tawny port.
I completely disagree with what I think is the meaning behind this. Whisky is stable spirit. It does not evolve after bottling in any way. Port is not stable. A 20 year tawny will change in the bottle over time in a way that whisky never will. A 20 year old whisky will always taste like a 20 year old whisky. A 20 year old Port will only taste like a 20 year old Port for up to a decade, after which it will gradually fall apart. We cannot therefore apply the same principles to naming whisky and Port.
I think you missed my intention; I don't generally disagree with your statement and my point primarily to the naming, in that both are sometimes named by year and sometimes by age at time of bottling. Neither a 20yr whisky, nor a 20yr tawny port, will become equivalent to a 30yr whisky or 30yr tawny after waiting for 10 years in the bottle. Yes, there is some debate about whether a tawny may continue to mature in the bottle, and if so to what degree or how fast, but I think the point stands nonetheless; both should still be referred to as 20yr with bottling date.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by DRT »

I agree with your final statement. But 20 year tawny has one long term future, despite whether or not there is a debatable short-term gain in keeping it in bottle. That is where these two drinks diverge enormously and cannot be thought of in the same way.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by jonker1541 »

Thanks for your discussion, I have learned a lot.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Glenn E. »

jonker1541 wrote:I draw the parallel with whisky because, like whisky, colheita doesn't age in the bottle, but only in the barrel.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding.

As DRT said, whiskey is a stable spirit. Once bottled, it changes very little and so is properly referred to as a "12 year old" or whatever as long as it remains in bottle.

This is not at all true of Tawny Port. Tawny Port ages both in cask before being bottled, and in bottle after being bottled. The way that it ages is different from cask to bottle, but it absolutely continues to change as it ages. I won't get into the debate about whether or not it improves with bottle age, but both sides of that debate would agree that it does change.

It is rarely safe to believe auction catalogs when it comes to Colheitas. Many auction houses don't even realize that there's another relevant date - the bottling date - for Colheitas, so it is almost never listed and they'll often simply assume that it was bottled recently. If you're actually interested in an auction lot of Colheita, always contact the auction house and get further clarification in writing.

All that said, it is not wrong to refer to a 1979 Colheita as 36 years old regardless of when it was bottled. If it isn't provided in the catalog, it is up to the buyer to contact the auction house and ask for the bottling date.

Now if they said (or implied that) it spent 36 years in wood, that would be a problem.
PhilW wrote:A bottle of 20yr whisky would normally still be described as a 20yr old several years later, as would a 20yr tawny port.
Yes, but remember that a "20 Year Old Tawny Port" isn't 20 years old. The "age" on the label is a flavor profile, not an actual age. Misleading, yes, but it is what it is.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by DRT »

I agree with Glenn 88)
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by idj123 »

Glenn's right- in my experience most auction houses (and that includes the specialist wine auctions) simply don't have clue when it comes to colheitas; consistently failing to include the bottling date in the description and believing that the cask year on the bottle is analogous with a VP of the same year. They're then surprised when the bottle fails to realise their minimum estimate! Then again, you're unlikely to find a recently bottled colheita at auction. Caveat Emptor.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Andy Velebil »

DRT wrote:I agree with Glenn 88)
me to
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by jonker1541 »

Thanks again for all your info.

One of your comments sparks another question: 20 yo is just a flavour profile? Are there general flavour profiles that all producers adhere to? And 20 yo tawny does consist of tawny port all minimum 20 yo right? Or is that another whisky parallel gone awry?
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by SushiNorth »

jonker1541 wrote:Thanks again for all your info.

One of your comments sparks another question: 20 yo is just a flavour profile? Are there general flavour profiles that all producers adhere to? And 20 yo tawny does consist of tawny port all minimum 20 yo right? Or is that another whisky parallel gone awry?
Others will likely correct me, but I was under the impression that a "20 year old Tawny" is 60% tawny that is at least 20 years old, and the rest is a blend to reach a particular flavor profile.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by SushiNorth »

jonker1541 wrote:Thanks for your discussion, I have learned a lot.
So -- what's going to happen? Did they take it back? Are you just going to keep it and enjoy it?
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Andy Velebil »

jonker1541 wrote:Thanks again for all your info.

One of your comments sparks another question: 20 yo is just a flavour profile? Are there general flavour profiles that all producers adhere to? And 20 yo tawny does consist of tawny port all minimum 20 yo right? Or is that another whisky parallel gone awry?
Despite what you often hear, here is the correct info. There can be any age of tawny in a Tawny With An Indication of Age (10, 20, 30, or 40). They are a blend of various years with the finished profile being that of an equivalent relevant age (10,20,30,40) Colheita.

That said, this is where things get screwy. There is no official set profile and it varies greatly by producer. Typically there is two camps or styles, what is often referred to as Portuguese styled and non-Portuguese styled (though that is just slang terms as no official term exists). Portuguese styled is generally more ruby in color and flavor profile and non-Portuguse is more tawny colored and more dried nuts, caramel, etc. A good example is to set a glass of 20 year Ferriera and Sandeman side by side, the color and tastes are vastly different yet they are the same product (from a different producer).

You can't compare whiskey to Port in any way, except at some point they are in a barrel for some time period and both contain alcohol.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by DRT »

Andy Velebil wrote:You can't compare whiskey to Port in any way, except at some point they are in a barrel for some time period and both contain alcohol.
There is even a difference here in that there is no requirement for Port to be aged in wood whereas Malt Whisky can only be called whisky after being in wood for four(?) years.

As Andy says, comparison between Port and whisky from either a stylistic or regulatory point of view is quite inappropriate as they have very little in common. This particularly applies to indications of age. With whisky it is absolute - a 12 years old whisky is a whisky that is 12 years old. The components of a 20 year old Port might be anything between 5 and 100 years old or more. The most surprising thing about aged tawny Ports is that they are allowed to label them in the way they do. Ask 100 consumers how old a 20 year old tawny is and 99 of them will tell you it is 20 years old. I am not aware of any other product/industry that is allowed this level of imprecision in their labeling.

Colheita, on the other hand, is what it says on the label. Port from one harvest, aged in wood for x years and then bottled in a specified year. Not much room for confusion, which is good.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Glenn E. »

+1 to both Andy's and DRT's replies.

To further explain the flavor profile, there is a panel of tasters who work for the IVDP (the Portuguese regulatory body that oversees Port in Portugal) who must approve Ports before they can be sold. They taste blind and I believe are only told what category the Port has been submitted for - not the producer. They are tested regularly and it seems to be a fairly highly regarded position, and they take their jobs very seriously. You'd have to in order to taste 70+ different Ports in one day!

Note that the flavor profile only applies to Tawnies With An Indication Of Age (or TWAIOA to save typing). 10, 20, 30, and 40 year olds. It does not apply to Colheitas, which must simply use grapes that come from the vintage on the label.

So a "20 Year Old Tawny Port" need only pass this panel's taste test in order to be approved. Producers can and do re-submit Ports that aren't approved, sometimes (perhaps often) with no changes to the blend whatsoever. Once a blend passes it's done and can be sold.

There is quite literally no restriction on the actual age of the Port that must be in the bottle. But the tasting panel is pretty good, so you'd never be able to get something that's only 10 years old past them if you submitted it as a 20 year old. In practice the average age (note: average, not minimum like whiskey) of the Port in the bottle is at least what's on the label, and often significantly older. I know of at least one 20 year old that averages 28 years old. I also know of a 40 year old that averages 60+ years old. Producers can go too far, though. I know of one producer who has had a submission for a 10 year old turned down because it tasted too old.

This same tasting panel also tastes Vintage Port to ensure that it is of sufficient quality to be labeled as such.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by jonker1541 »

So can I find the "official" flavour profiles anywhere?
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Andy Velebil »

jonker1541 wrote:So can I find the "official" flavour profiles anywhere?
No. It's very complex. The short version is whatever the IVDP taster thinks it should be and gives their stamp of approval.




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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Glenn E. »

Andy Velebil wrote:
jonker1541 wrote:So can I find the "official" flavour profiles anywhere?
No. It's very complex. The short version is whatever the IVDP taster thinks it should be and gives their stamp of approval.
Yep. If such a thing exists at all, it's only as tribal knowledge within the tasting panel.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by RAYC »

Glenn E. wrote:I know of at least one 20 year old that averages 28 years old. I also know of a 40 year old that averages 60+ years old.
The 40 is a slightly curious category in my view and slightly set apart from the 10-20-30 yr categories, as it seems to have been used (at least until recently) as a "catch all" for a whole range of much older wood-aged ports (whether those are blends of older ports, or individual casks that aren't provably of a specific or single vintage). Stricly speaking, isn't the category actually "Over 40yr" (with the label required to say as much unless the bottling is intended for sale in the US)?
Glenn E. wrote:It does not apply to Colheitas, which must simply use grapes that come from the vintage on the label.
I thought Colheitas still had to pass some sort of taste test for characteristics?
jonker1541 wrote:Because I am traditionally a whisky drinker, I am even stricter than that. I felt it was a 9 yo colheita, that just hasn't been opened in the past 27 years. I draw the parallel with whisky because, like whisky, colheita doesn't age in the bottle, but only in the barrel. So a 12 year old bottle of Glenlivet that was bottled in the 60s is still 12 years old.
I think it is hard to have a hard and fast rule with port. For example, old Niepoort and Constantino colheitas will sell for prices that reflect the vintage date despite being bottled many years ago (and may even have spent more time in bottle than in wood). However, as a general rule, 10yr and 20yr tawnies that were bottled some time ago will not get credit for time spent in bottle (and may even be overlooked by customers if bottled more than 5-7 years ago). In each case, though, the wine will definitely have evolved in some way during that time.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Glenn E. »

RAYC wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:I know of at least one 20 year old that averages 28 years old. I also know of a 40 year old that averages 60+ years old.
The 40 is a slightly curious category in my view and slightly set apart from the 10-20-30 yr categories, as it seems to have been used (at least until recently) as a "catch all" for a whole range of much older wood-aged ports (whether those are blends of older ports, or individual casks that aren't provably of a specific or single vintage). Stricly speaking, isn't the category actually "Over 40yr" (with the label required to say as much unless the bottling is intended for sale in the US)?
Unless my memory is failing me again, you are correct. However it is labeled as 40 is most markets but "40+" or "over 40" or something like that in the US.
Glenn E. wrote:It does not apply to Colheitas, which must simply use grapes that come from the vintage on the label.
I thought Colheitas still had to pass some sort of taste test for characteristics?
That's possible, but I don't recall hearing about it. It would make sense, though, since I think every other style of Port must pass the tasting panel at some point.

The thing is, there's not really a "catch-all" lower category for "failed" Colheitas like there is for Vintage Port. "Failed" VP could be resubmitted as LBV, or failing that as Ruby. Base-level Tawny Ports are made differently, so a "failed" Colheita doesn't automatically fit. I suppose they could be used for blending into TWAIOA, though.
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Re: Is it misleading to sell a 79-88 colheita as 36 yo?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Glenn,

Ray is correct. In the USA it's labeled as "40 Year old." The rest of the world is "Over 40 Years old." In the States it's because it has to be an exact number. Apparently the TTB/ATF can't handle non-exact numbers :lol:
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