vintage port

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g-man
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Re: vintage port

Post by g-man »

jdaw1 wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:I have been sent a lot of large pictures. PM me if you want to be sent those of a particular bottle.
so the bottles were empty? =)
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audi4563
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Re: vintage port

Post by audi4563 »

the bottles are all unopened and original
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Re: vintage port

Post by audi4563 »

so where do i go to get the bottles of port varified and valued, thanks.
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DRT
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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT »

As you live in Rochester I would suggest you take them to Dickens House Wine Emporium and ask them for a valuation and to make you an offer. They seem to have a reasonable selection of Port and fine wines so should know what they are doing.
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Andy Velebil
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

JB vintage wrote:Fake alert!
Hello everyone! Please take care if you are interested in buying the Constantino 1927. The seal is from the 1990's and is not a seal for Constantino 1927.
Having done some previous research that Selo is post very early 1970's.

This is a Colheita, as are most old constantino's.

It is probably real, as best I can tell from the pics, but the story of being given it that long ago is impossible.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

DRT wrote:I think that style of selo came into use in the 1970's, which is consistent with the story. As far as I am aware all 1927s would have had no selo when originally released as (a) they would almost all have been bottled outside Gaia and (b) the selo didn't come into use until after the IVP was created in 1931. It is highly likely that a number of bottles were released from the Constantino cellars when the brand was acquired by Ferreira.

I think this bottle is not a fake.
FYI, Constantino (Quinta do Crasto) used to have a lodge in Gaia back in the old days. So this could have been bottled there.

But you are correct that Ferreira has owned it since 1963(ish). It is a Colheita which was probably released after Ferreira bought it. When it was actually bottled may be a different story.
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DRT
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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT »

Andy,

The point I was making is that when the 1927s were originally bottled (in 1929) they could not have had selos as selos were not yet in use.

Why do you think this is a colheita?


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"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Andy Velebil
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

DRT wrote:Andy,

The point I was making is that when the 1927s were originally bottled (in 1929) they could not have had selos as selos were not yet in use.

Why do you think this is a colheita?


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The reason I say it's a Colheita has nothing to do with the Selo. The label and bottle are consistent with what was used to bottle their tawny Ports. It is also consistent with all the other Colheita's I've had from this label. The only old VP bottles I've seen or drank from did not use this molded bottle design and label. That said, I've only seen a few bottles of very old VP from this house as they are exceedingly rare (and as mentioned a different type bottle/label from what i've experienced).

The label is not an original Constantino label. Actually, this label gives me real pause. The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira. Only on later Ferreira owned labels I've seen spelled out the words Sociedade dos Vinhos do Porto. Even the label I have from a 1910 Colheita bottled in 1971 doesn't have this. So I suspect this was a label used post (at least) 1971. Ferreira also released a lot of old Constantino tawny stocks circa late 1960's - 1970's.

For these reasons it appears to me to be a Colheita.

Again, the story of being given this in the 40's or 50's is impossible given the Selo alone. Add in the label design and it's completely impossible.
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jdaw1
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Re: vintage port

Post by jdaw1 »

Another picture of the Cn27’s selo and bottle.
Image
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djewesbury
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Re: vintage port

Post by djewesbury »

Andy Velebil wrote:The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira.
That typeface is Univers, which was designed in 1954 and released in 1957, if that's of any use.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

djewesbury wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira.
That typeface is Univers, which was designed in 1954 and released in 1957, if that's of any use.
Thank you for the info. However Constantino used a very unique design for their lettering / labels.
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Re: vintage port

Post by djewesbury »

Andy Velebil wrote:
djewesbury wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:The type set used for the word "Vintage" is incorrect for pre-owned Ferreira.
That typeface is Univers, which was designed in 1954 and released in 1957, if that's of any use.
Thank you for the info. However Constantino used a very unique design for their lettering / labels.
Exactly. If we consult Phil W's VP identification gallery we find this image:
Image
This is a 66 - so post-Ferreira. But the typeface for the word 'Vintage' is entirely different from that used on the "27".
We have established it has a selo that was put on many years after 1929.
We have established that it uses a typeface that wasn't available until 1957, at which point Constantino labels presumably used a version of the 'handwritten' label archived by Phil here.
We have established that after 1963ish, the typeface used on the label (for that word VINTAGE, and the date) was that seen above.
So, what have we established?
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g-man
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Re: vintage port

Post by g-man »

that I saw this bottle hammer fro 300$ USD if the OP was wondering any indication of worth
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RAYC
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Re: vintage port

Post by RAYC »

g-man wrote:that I saw this bottle hammer fro 300$ USD if the OP was wondering any indication of worth
Which bottle? We don't yet know what this bottle is!!
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g-man
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Re: vintage port

Post by g-man »

RAYC wrote:
g-man wrote:that I saw this bottle hammer fro 300$ USD if the OP was wondering any indication of worth
Which bottle? We don't yet know what this bottle is!!
the selo'd one with a similar looking label =)
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JB vintage
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Re: vintage port

Post by JB vintage »

It looks that we have established that this bottle is not authentic, and that there are several things that are not correct on this one. If is good to be able to spot a faulty bottle and I have learned several new things during this discussion.

If the bottle g-man saw in the US was similar, perhaps that was a fake too?

djewesbury- you say that the typeface is Univers and thus post 57. Just out of curiosity, are you referring to the typeface on the bottle or the word Vintage on the label? Or are they the same?

I did find a label of 1947 when googling this and the design of the label is different http://www.port-blog.com/.a/6a00d8341cc ... 0e6970c-pi I hope you do not mind showing the link here Axel.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

JB vintage wrote:It looks that we have established that this bottle is not authentic, and that there are several things that are not correct on this one.
That is NOT TRUE. This bottle may very well be and probably is authentic. I see nothing that makes it a forgery at this point in time.

However, it was originally released after the Contstantino brand was sold to Ferreira.

Most likely this is a tawny Port.

What is not correct is the story of being given it back in the 1940's - 50's. As that would be impossible given the label and Selo strip design.
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djewesbury
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vintage port

Post by djewesbury »

JB vintage wrote:It looks that we have established that this bottle is not authentic, and that there are several things that are not correct on this one.
I think we need further information before we can be conclusive on that but it is certainly anomalous..
JB vintage wrote:djewesbury- you say that the typeface is Univers and thus post 57. Just out of curiosity, are you referring to the typeface on the bottle or the word Vintage on the label? Or are they the same?
Just to the word 'Vintage' and the date, 1927, below it. The bottle seems genuine enough - surely a very complex and costly thing to fake! If nobody has seen any other Constantinos that use this typeface - and it is surely possible that a mislabelled Colheita was bottled many years later, and that the typeface used on this bottling was not the same as that used in other post-Ferreira labels - then it still is not enough to say that this is a fake, necessarily, even with the added information of the selo.
JB vintage wrote:I did find a label of 1947 when googling this and the design of the label is different http://www.port-blog.com/.a/6a00d8341cc ... 0e6970c-pi I hope you do not mind showing the link here Axel.
This is a 41 - but the label is the same design as the 47 I posted above I think.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

djewesbury wrote:.....and it is surely possible that a mislabelled Colheita was bottled many years later...
The hard part is often times, as we know, when a Tawny Port is sold in different countries different wording was often used on the label. Think of Graham's "Single Harvest" on the label for their new Tawny's instead of using the term "Colheita". So it is possible this was a tawny sold somewhere where the term "Colheita" would not have been accepted (like the UK, who is adverse to the term) and the simple term vintage was used instead.

That is all speculation on our part. Heck it very well may be a ruby port for all we know. I will reach out and see if I can get a definitive answer on this.
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Re: vintage port

Post by g-man »

Andy Velebil wrote:
djewesbury wrote:.....and it is surely possible that a mislabelled Colheita was bottled many years later...
The hard part is often times, as we know, when a Tawny Port is sold in different countries different wording was often used on the label. Think of Graham's "Single Harvest" on the label for their new Tawny's instead of using the term "Colheita". So it is possible this was a tawny sold somewhere where the term "Colheita" would not have been accepted (like the UK, who is adverse to the term) and the simple term vintage was used instead.

That is all speculation on our part. Heck it very well may be a ruby port for all we know. I will reach out and see if I can get a definitive answer on this.

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

g-man wrote:

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels
Don't follow you as to the "date on it" comment??
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g-man
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Re: vintage port

Post by g-man »

Andy Velebil wrote:
g-man wrote:

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels
Don't follow you as to the "date on it" comment??

i think the ivdp rules state that if it's marked Ruby

you're not allowed to have a date like 1927 on it
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Andy Velebil
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil »

g-man wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:
g-man wrote:

with a date on it?

i thought by ivdp rules it's illegal to put a date on a ruby. (or did you mean lbv?)

but constantino isn't a label that comes to mind as something that should be faked due to the fact it does't realy sell for a premium compared to other labels
Don't follow you as to the "date on it" comment??

i think the ivdp rules state that if it's marked Ruby

you're not allowed to have a date like 1927 on it
Well all vp is a Ruby and it has a date.
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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT »

g-man wrote:i think the ivdp rules state that if it's marked Ruby

you're not allowed to have a date like 1927 on it
There is no point trying to retrospectively apply today's IVDP rules to labels that were produced decades ago.

Personally, I think there is insufficient evidence for anyone to make a definitive claim that this bottle is anything other than what the seller claims it to be. I think the bottle looks genuine, the label looks genuine, it is probably vintage port (not a colheita) and is an ex-cellar release which is why it has a selo over the top of the capsule.

The only thing that I think doesn't fit is that the selo appears to be from a time that is two or three decades later than the seller's aunt claims that her husband was given the bottle. A slight confusion in the aunt's recollection is far more likely than any speculation that this is a fake bottle.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Glenn E. »

DRT wrote:Personally, I think there is insufficient evidence for anyone to make a definitive claim that this bottle is anything other than what the seller claims it to be. I think the bottle looks genuine, the label looks genuine, it is probably vintage port (not a colheita) and is an ex-cellar release which is why it has a selo over the top of the capsule.

The only thing that I think doesn't fit is that the selo appears to be from a time that is two or three decades later than the seller's aunt claims that her husband was given the bottle. A slight confusion in the aunt's recollection is far more likely than any speculation that this is a fake bottle.
+1

This looks like a perfectly genuine bottle to me. It is in all likelihood a Colheita, not a Vintage Port, the label's "vintage" notwithstanding. I believe that I have bottles in my cellar labeled "Vintage Reserve" or something similar that are most definitely what we now call Colheitas.

As Derek said, the only oddity in this case is the story about when it was received. And that's probably just an error of memory.
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