vintage port

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DRT
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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT » 21:10 Wed 14 Aug 2013

audi4563 wrote:hi, my 86 yr old auntie has given me 3 bottles of vintage port to sell and also a bottle of 70% john haig Dimples whisky, we know one of them is worth quite a lot. we need to know how to go about selling them, can anyone advise me, Thanks
The original question was actually asking for advice on how to sell the bottles, not asking for a price. I made a recommendation a couple of pages ago to take the bottles to what appeared to be a long-standing and reputable wine merchant in Rochester. Perhaps that is what has happened.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil » 21:35 Wed 14 Aug 2013

DRT wrote:
djewesbury wrote:And who left this piece of lead pipe in the library?
Detective Velebil when he was hiding the evidence of the photos of the 1941 VP.
in a training class today will check my photos when I get home. And it was a candle stick, not a lead pipe ;)

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DRT
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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT » 21:46 Wed 14 Aug 2013

Andy Velebil wrote:
DRT wrote:
djewesbury wrote:And who left this piece of lead pipe in the library?
Detective Velebil when he was hiding the evidence of the photos of the 1941 VP.
in a training class today will check my photos when I get home. And it was a candle stick, not a lead pipe ;)
Sounds like a fit-up to me!
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil » 02:48 Thu 15 Aug 2013

These were all opened at Quinta do Crasto. The one on the left was provided by Miguel Roquette (son of the current owner of Crasto and who's great grandfather and grandfather made all these). This bottle has been in the family possession since it was produced. The other two were from my cellar, bought at auction in the past 8 years. A lot of emails prior to the tasting, discussion during, and follow up converstaion after ensued as there was some research on Miguel's part regarding the 1920 and 1958. So some of this information is new even to some of the other :tpf: 'ers who were at this dinner.

The one on the left is a very old NV Roncao Velho tawny Port. (quite tasty I may add)

The middle one from 1920 is a Colheita. At the time we drank this Miguel had never actually seen a bottle of this 1920, but he had the records at the table proving it was authentic. It had an authentic original capsule. The cork didn't come out in one piece and we couldn't read it accurately (the bottle was saved and given to Miguel).

The right one ended up being a Vintage Port with "Crasto 1958" on the cork. Though the label was a recreation and someone erroneously put Colheita on it, the contents and cork were authentic per Miguel. Though, Miguel had never seen a 1958 in person and had never seen this old of a Constantino VP with "Crasto" printed on the cork. He did find records of a small amount of this being made. Most likely this wasn't commercially released but that is speculation as he couldn't find records to prove either way.

As you will notice the bottle for the 1920 Colheita and the 1958 VP are plain smooth glass bottles. There is no raised logo. All of these bottles were pre-Constantino being sold in the 60's.

As the right two bottles are very similar in shape, it was theorized by Miguel that these were released around the same time period, just prior to the sale of the company. One being a Colheita, the other a VP. That would make sense as the VP would have been bottled in 1960 or 1961. The company being sold a few years later.

The left bottle, being a tawny, has the raised letters. You can see the logo wasn't the best of quality.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil » 02:52 Thu 15 Aug 2013

This was taken at the Ferreira tasting lab. As you can see some of the bottles with "Vintage" on the labels use t-corks. This indicates it was NOT a Vintage Port but a single vintage tawny port. And based on the strip labels were destined as export to the USA. As "21 Brands" was based in New York.
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil » 02:53 Thu 15 Aug 2013

Finally, the 1958 cork...
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil » 03:02 Thu 15 Aug 2013

Here is a 1924 Colheita which I took and opened at Quinta do Crasto in 2009. Same bottle shape and label as the 1920 opened a year later (see above pic).
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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil » 03:33 Thu 15 Aug 2013

and the 1941 we had in 2009. There was some discussion if this was a Tawny or a Ruby Port, as a couple people didn't think it was a tawny. From my notes and recollection most sided more this was a tawny and not a VP. Made in a Portuguese style with a more fruit forward component to it. But IIRC even Miguel wasn't 100% sure if this was a VP or a Tawny, but leaned more toward it being a tawny.
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Re: vintage port

Post by g-man » 05:06 Thu 15 Aug 2013

love it

this has been one awesome thread
Disclosure: Distributor of Quevedo wines and Quinta do Gomariz

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DRT
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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT » 11:37 Thu 15 Aug 2013

OK, Andy (and Glenn), I wholeheartedly concede that this might be a colheita - but is probably a VP :lol:

...and one thing that is abundantly clear from the collection of photographs we now have is that this bottle is absolutely not a fake.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Re: vintage port

Post by JB vintage » 09:20 Sun 18 Aug 2013

To try to get a definite answer I wrote to a friend at the at the Port wine institute. After consulting the IVDP archives they wrote:
"This seal number was not sold to Constantino. This seal was sold in 1991 to Croft! They’ve never owned Constantino therefore this is really strange."

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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT » 11:55 Sun 18 Aug 2013

Interesting.

That was during the period when Croft was owned by United Distillers. At the same time Sandeman was owned by Seagram. United Distillers and Seagram subsequently became part of what is now Deagio. Sandeman then bacame part of Sogrape, who own Ferriera, who own Constantino. There is therefore a tenuous corporate link between Croft and Constantino during the 1990s.

Is it possible that a box of IVDP selos originally issued to Croft found their way to a labelling room in Sogrape?

I have seen a few bottling facilities with random boxes of selos scattered around the floor and not under any apparent control. Mergers, acquisitions and disposals have a habit of scattering uncontrolled assets to the winds. Perhaps that happened here?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

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Re: vintage port

Post by JB vintage » 14:49 Sun 18 Aug 2013

DRT wrote:Interesting.

That was during the period when Croft was owned by United Distillers. At the same time Sandeman was owned by Seagram. United Distillers and Seagram subsequently became part of what is now Deagio. Sandeman then bacame part of Sogrape, who own Ferriera, who own Constantino. There is therefore a tenuous corporate link between Croft and Constantino during the 1990s.

Is it possible that a box of IVDP selos originally issued to Croft found their way to a labelling room in Sogrape?

I have seen a few bottling facilities with random boxes of selos scattered around the floor and not under any apparent control. Mergers, acquisitions and disposals have a habit of scattering uncontrolled assets to the winds. Perhaps that happened here?
I have no idea

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Re: vintage port

Post by CPR 1 » 20:37 Tue 20 Aug 2013

Most fascinating thread - not withstanding that no firm conclusions have been possible, how much of a problem if at all is fake bottles in peoples experience?

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Re: vintage port

Post by LGTrotter » 12:11 Wed 21 Aug 2013

CPR 1 wrote:Most fascinating thread - not withstanding that no firm conclusions have been possible, how much of a problem if at all is fake bottles in peoples experience?
This thought may be worth a thread of its own. I can't say I have ever noticed a fake, not many duds either but then again I smoke fags so how could I tell? (as Dorothy parker once quipped on being told that Calvin Coolidge was dead.)

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Re: vintage port

Post by Andy Velebil » 13:36 Wed 21 Aug 2013

Been quite busy at work this week and haven't had a chance to do an in-depth search. But Paul Symington himself posted the information about his grandfather being on the committee which drew up the rules on VP after WW2. If someone cares to poke around FTLOP for a bit I'm sure they can find it.

CPR 1 wrote:Most fascinating thread - not withstanding that no firm conclusions have been possible, how much of a problem if at all is fake bottles in peoples experience?
I've only seen two bottles in person which were clearly fake. I've also been told by a couple others they've run across a fake or two in their time. So it seems relatively low to find counterfeit bottles. At least low compared to how much is counterfeited from Bordeaux and Burgundy or in China. But it does happen and I'd venture to say it is going to probably start happening more often now that there are more "luxury" bottlings of VP, such as Stone Terrace, Capela, Vargellas Vinha Velha, etc.

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Re: vintage port

Post by LGTrotter » 14:07 Wed 21 Aug 2013

There seem to be versions of what is fake; there is something which is misattributed ("believed Taylor 48" when actually it is a 66), the deliberate forgery such as that alleged against Kurwinian. I have some bottles that I have no idea what they are and neither did the people who sold them to me.

Fake seems rather an emotive word to use about some of these variations, I have no particular objection to 'believed so and so' as this is often reflected in the price. I would observe however that some sellers seem to take the most optimistic view about the vintage and shipper of their wine.

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Re: vintage port

Post by jdaw1 » 16:25 Wed 21 Aug 2013

I have bought a Cockburn ‟believed 1950s”, which was 1960. I didn’t feel robbed.

I have bought a share of a case of ‟believed 1955”, some of which was ’55, some ’48, at least one ’35, and a ’27. I didn’t feel robbed.

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Re: vintage port

Post by LGTrotter » 20:50 Wed 21 Aug 2013

jdaw1 wrote:I have bought a Cockburn ‟believed 1950s”, which was 1960. I didn’t feel robbed.

I have bought a share of a case of ‟believed 1955”, some of which was ’55, some ’48, at least one ’35, and a ’27. I didn’t feel robbed.
I agree; one of the finest excitements of port is taking a punt on anonymous bottles.

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Re: vintage port

Post by audi4563 » 16:10 Fri 30 Aug 2013

Ok, so the 3 bottles of port are now for sale if anyone is at all interested................

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Re: vintage port

Post by DRT » 16:42 Fri 30 Aug 2013

audi4563 wrote:Ok, so the 3 bottles of port are now for sale if anyone is at all interested................
DRT wrote:As you live in Rochester I would suggest you take them to Dickens House Wine Emporium and ask them for a valuation and to make you an offer. They seem to have a reasonable selection of Port and fine wines so should know what they are doing.
Did you try this? I think it is your easiest route to selling your bottles unless someone here is willing to make you an offer.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

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