Graham 1985 case. Sealed and well stored

[awc]

Hi there,

I have a case of Graham's Vintage 1985 that I would like to sell to a discerning port lover. The case is unopened and has not been stored in a cellar but in a cool dry room under our stairs. If interest is low could someone perhaps offer me advice on another mode of sale, perhaps through a retailer or auction.

Any interest or help would be much appreciated.

[awc]

Hi there,

I have a 12 bottle case of 1985 Graham's Vintage that I am looking to sell to a discerning port drinker. The case is sealed and has been carefully stored in a cool dry room under our stairs without disturbance. If anyone is interested in it please let me know. If interest is lacking then I would be very appreciative of any advice on alternative modes of sale, through retailers etc.

Any interest or advice would be much valued.

[jdaw1]

Hello and welcome. Please could you say roughly where you UK or US or other, for example and if you have a price in mind.

Also, you have posted twice. Maybe our new-member processes need to be made clearer. Anyway, threads merged.

[awc]

Sorry about that, I wasn't sure weather the thread had gone through or not as I have quite idiosyncratic internet occasionally. I am based in East Anglia in the UK.

Based on my research online and having spoken to a couple of friends in the fine wine industry it is clear that retailers charge upwards of £750 pounds for a case or >£60 for a bottle. With this in mind I would be happy of offers around £650 for the case and can organise proper safe delivery within the United Kingdom. If this seems out of touch then forgive me.

Thanks.

[g-man]

For any sale, i'd imagine you'd have to crack the case.

I dont think many people would buy an sealed case of anything without inspecting contents/fill levels/condition of bottles especially if you're asking pretty near full retail for the bottles.

[Glenn E.]

You won't normally see full retail prices in a private sale. 50% of retail is the norm, so probably closer to £30-40 per bottle. Interestingly, this particular Port doesn't seem to get the usual UK "discount" compared to US prices. It is available online in the US for $64/bottle right now, though that's just a single example.

stored in a cool dry room under our stairs

It is quite possible that I do not understand what this means in England, so forgive my error if that is the case, but this would not be considered proper long-term storage in the US. Under the stairs is still at the temperature of the house, not of a cellar, and so is a bit too warm even in a cool climate. Proper cellar temperature is 55F/13C. Even in a cool climate, a cool room under the stairs is probably going to be 65F/18C. The Port won't have been ruined, but it may have aged more rapidly than had it been properly stored in a 55F/13C cellar.

[g-man]

It is quite possible that I do not understand what this means in England, so forgive my error if that is the case, but this would not be considered proper long-term storage in the US. Under the stairs is still at the temperature of the house, not of a cellar, and so is a bit too warm even in a cool climate. Proper cellar temperature is 55F/13C. Even in a cool climate, a cool room under the stairs is probably going to be 65F/18C. The Port won't have been ruined, but it may have aged more rapidly than had it been properly stored in a 55F/13C cellar.

my cellar happens to be under my stairs

[awc]

For any sale, i'd imagine you'd have to crack the case.

I dont think many people would buy an sealed case of anything without inspecting contents/fill levels/condition of bottles especially if you're asking pretty near full retail for the bottles.

Thanks. I imagined that would be protocol. I was just being clear that the bottles haven't been handled or disturbed.

[awc]

stored in a cool dry room under our stairs

It is quite possible that I do not understand what this means in England, so forgive my error if that is the case, but this would not be considered proper long-term storage in the US. Under the stairs is still at the temperature of the house, not of a cellar, and so is a bit too warm even in a cool climate. Proper cellar temperature is 55F/13C. Even in a cool climate, a cool room under the stairs is probably going to be 65F/18C. The Port won't have been ruined, but it may have aged more rapidly than had it been properly stored in a 55F/13C cellar.

We use this space under the stairs because it is unheated - unlike the rest of the house - and has a thick flagstone floor. It is colder space than ambient room temperature but I can't be precise with exact temperature readings.

[awc]

You won't normally see full retail prices in a private sale. 50% of retail is the norm, so probably closer to £30-40 per bottle. Interestingly, this particular Port doesn't seem to get the usual UK "discount" compared to US prices. It is available online in the US for $64/bottle right now, though that's just a single example.

I can understand why the price might be slightly discounted, certainly fair enough when selling privately and at ones convenience but why so much of a mark down? 50% seems like quite a big step down from a market price even if done privately between individuals.

[jdaw1]

It would be more accurate to say that selling via auction (after fees), or privately to a wine merchant, typically nets the vendor about 50% of the retail price. For which reason our usual advice to would-be sellers is to drink it.

But a private sale can happen, of course, at any mutually-agreed price.

[RAYC]

You won't normally see full retail prices in a private sale. 50% of retail is the norm, so probably closer to £30-40 per bottle. Interestingly, this particular Port doesn't seem to get the usual UK "discount" compared to US prices. It is available online in the US for $64/bottle right now, though that's just a single example.

I can understand why the price might be slightly discounted, certainly fair enough when selling privately and at ones convenience but why so much of a mark down? 50% seems like quite a big step down from a market price even if done privately between individuals.

Buying Graham 1985 from a merchant has two advantages: (i) it offers a better possibility of redress if the port turns out to be spoilt; and (ii) more often than not, the Graham 85 will be sold "in bond", meaning it has never left professional storage (and therefore giving a level of comfort about the history of its storage conditions since 1987, or whenever it was that it was shipped to the UK). Different people attach a different value to those advantages.

At auction, Graham 1985 is likely to go somewhat cheaper than at retail. I have bought two cases of this from auction over the last 30 months for the £450-£500 mark (all-in), though i did note that it often seemed to go for around £550 (Tom may have a better idea). Again, even within auctions, you can sometimes steer yourself towards lots that look as if they are part of a wider consignment coming from a serious cellar, which for cases like this is my general tactic. When those crop up, the amount i am willing to bid is generally more than on single lots from unspecified provenance.

[Andy Velebil]

Current USA auction prices are about 52 Pounds per bottle (of well and properly stored bottles). UK prices are typically a bit cheaper.

[awc]

Buying Graham 1985 from a merchant has two advantages: (i) it offers a better possibility of redress if the port turns out to be spoilt; and (ii) more often than not, the Graham 85 will be sold "in bond", meaning it has never left professional storage (and therefore giving a level of comfort about the history of its storage conditions since 1987, or whenever it was that it was shipped to the UK). Different people attach a different value to those advantages.

At auction, Graham 1985 is likely to go somewhat cheaper than at retail. I have bought two cases of this from auction over the last 30 months for the £450-£500 mark (all-in), though i did note that it often seemed to go for around £550 (Tom may have a better idea). Again, even within auctions, you can sometimes steer yourself towards lots that look as if they are part of a wider consignment coming from a serious cellar, which for cases like this is my general tactic. When those crop up, the amount i am willing to bid is generally more than on single lots from unspecified provenance.

Thanks. This makes sense. I was just looking for some guidance. It has been stored carefully at cellar temperature although I can understand the concern that I buyer might have.

I would love to enjoy it myself however I have just finished my studies at university; the sale of it will help my financial situation and I hope to be able to reinvest some of the proceeds into a more youthful batch that might be ready to drunk in a decade or so. Hopefully then I will be able to justify allocating some of my disposable income to such vintages.

With this in mind I would be happy for a private sale to go through for around £500. If no-one is interested then would someone be kind enough to suggest suitable auction houses or merchants that I might be able to go through.

[jdaw1]

Please say approximately where you are located or more usefully where the port is located.

[DRT]

Please say approximately where you are located or more usefully where the port is located.

I am based in East Anglia in the UK.

[g-man]

only IMHO, I think 500 is a bit on the high side for an unknown private sell.

350-400 would be a good deal, 400-425 would probably be closer to fair, 450 would probably be tops.

[jdaw1]

I am based in East Anglia in the UK.

Apologies to awc, as I missed that.

Also, FYI, buying a case of something younger won’t be much cheaper. If you want to own some port for special occasions, do consider not selling.

[awc]

Also, FYI, buying a case of something younger won’t be much cheaper. If you want to own some port for special occasions, do consider not selling.

As I've said yes it would be nice to keep it for special occasions but unfortunately at this stage in life I would prefer a bit more financial security.

My great uncle, who kindly gave me the port as a christening present, was quite keen for me to follow his practice of buying, selling and trading port as it matures. In this way he expanded his cellar and over time had port that he could consume and port that had been laid down to sell on and continue the process.

In fantasy/ideal world I would sell this case - a famous online retailer is selling for £72 a bottle, x12 = £864 - the same retailer is selling 2011 Taylor's for £237 (for half a case) and the same quantity of 2011 Graham's for £240. Buying a full set of 12 would come to around £480 - leaving around £380 of credit that I need elsewhere. - I'm going to guess that these market prices don't work between private sellers (at the apparent reduced rates) because few owners are looking to sell young vintages that are yet to reach maturity?

It seems a shame that I won't be able to follow this practice. If I were financially stable and it were possible I would follow my uncle's plan and sell the 1985 and use the proceeds towards two 2011 cases for drinking and perhaps selling into the future.

Oh well, I will see what I can do from here.

[g-man]

As discussed on the forums, unfortunately port has traditionally been a bad "investment" but a fantastic pleasure.

Even so, the old way of buying every vintage of a first growth bordeaux has had its economics turned on its head. Used to be that one could sell all the good years and drink all the bad/mediocre years for free. Alas no longer the case as recent vintages have well exceeded the price of older ones.

Same goes with port, "older" vintages sell for a discount to current releases. You'd have to go to the 70s before you see any price appreciation over a recently released vintage. The 80s in particular are a good buy as are the 90s at this current time.

[Glenn E.]

My great uncle, who kindly gave me the port as a christening present, was quite keen for me to follow his practice of buying, selling and trading port as it matures. In this way he expanded his cellar and over time had port that he could consume and port that had been laid down to sell on and continue the process.

As a hobby for someone who loves Port, this is a fine plan.

As an investment opportunity, it is poor at best. Port does not appreciate rapidly enough to out-pace bonds on the financial market, and bonds aren't exactly the most lucrative way to invest in the first place. If your goal is to make money, investing in Port and aging it yourself is a rubbish way to do it.

For example, the 2011 Vintage Ports are asking ~$80/bottle in the US. For the same price, I can often get well-stored 1985 VPs (Fonseca, Graham, Gould Campbell, and Smith Woodhouse are frequently available around that price). Why would I want to buy a 2011 when I can get a 1985 that's already well-aged?

This is the constant dilemma for Port enthusiasts.

As I am in the US, I can't offer any advice on ways to sell in the UK. Others here will no doubt offer that advice if you do still need to sell. I have purchased G85 by the case twice in the past, so I'm sure you'll be able to find someone in the UK who is also interested in doing so. It's a great VP and it's a shame that you need to sell, but I understand your reasoning.

[awc]

As an investment opportunity, it is poor at best. Port does not appreciate rapidly enough to out-pace bonds on the financial market, and bonds aren't exactly the most lucrative way to invest in the first place. If your goal is to make money, investing in Port and aging it yourself is a rubbish way to do it.

For example, the 2011 Vintage Ports are asking ~$80/bottle in the US. For the same price, I can often get well-stored 1985 VPs (Fonseca, Graham, Gould Campbell, and Smith Woodhouse are frequently available around that price). Why would I want to buy a 2011 when I can get a 1985 that's already well-aged?

I completely understand this. The plan wasn't to make money and continue to make money, but to essentially convert this drinkable vintage into a little bit of cash and if possible buy a case that would mature to drink in a decade or so. I am 22 and while I enjoy entertaining my friends and could think up occasions to crack open a delightful 1985, I would prefer to convert it into a vintage that I could whip out when I'm in my 30s or 40s and more settled so to speak. Quite interesting the way the economics are working around it.

Thank you very much for your insight.

[RAYC]

. I am 22 and while I enjoy entertaining my friends and could think up occasions to crack open a delightful 1985, I would prefer to convert it into a vintage that I could whip out when I'm in my 30s or 40s and more settled so to speak. Quite interesting the way the economics are working around it.

Thank you very much for your insight.

If you are 22 now, Graham 1985 is absolutely a port that you can whip out in your 30s or 40s. Whereas port from the 2011 vintage may well be going through awkward phases during those decades.

As for where to sell, Seckford Wines or Wilkinson Vintners (for merchants) or Straker Chadwick (for an auction house) would be good places to start your enquiries if you don't get any interest here. You could also try a private sale on wine-pages.com, though i can't recall whether they require you to have been an active posting member for a certain amount of time before you can make a sale listing or not...

[DRT]

The plan wasn't to make money and continue to make money, but to essentially convert this drinkable vintage into a little bit of cash and if possible buy a case that would mature to drink in a decade or so. I am 22 and while I enjoy entertaining my friends and could think up occasions to crack open a delightful 1985, I would prefer to convert it into a vintage that I could whip out when I'm in my 30s or 40s and more settled so to speak. Quite interesting the way the economics are working around it.

Something worth bearing in mind is the longevity of fine vintage port. The time period you are talking about is 8-20 years from now, by which time Graham's 1985 will be 36-48 years old. Those of us here who are fortunate enough to drink vintage port regularly are currently big fans of the 1960, 1963, 1966 and 1970 ports which are now approximately the age that your 1985 will be when you want to drink it. 2011 on the other hand will probably not be mature for 20, 30 or perhaps 40 years!

The best advice you have received so far is to keep the case and enjoy it in a few years from now when it will be fabulously mature.

Derek

[djewesbury]

Really. Keep it and drink it. There will be other ways to make the few hundred pounds this will deliver. And buy a max-min thermometer, you'll no doubt be surprised at how warm your cool room gets!