A market for fakes?

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Hopkino
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A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 21:43 Tue 03 Dec 2019

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77 Graham’s (1)
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Evening all. A close friend of mine contacted me this evening to enquire about a few magnums of 77 Graham’s lurking in her fathers cupboards. After a little knowledge imparted she sent me some photos and I have to say, they look great. Getting a bottle of Graham’s 77 off my own rack I was suddenly drawn to the label - which on closer inspection looks brand new and appears to be what looks like a photocopied label. The lettering is not as crisp as I would expect given the technology available in 77and the colours don’t seem right. I’m no expert, which is why I turned here for some advice. I keep meticulous records and I know from where this was purchased, which led me to thinking - how often are VP’s forged and how likely are they to be passed through the retail market?
On a separate note - if my friend is looking to sell, I’ll be dropping a line here first for her.

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jdaw1
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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by jdaw1 » 22:22 Tue 03 Dec 2019

G77 isn’t a very expensive wine, and was less expensive in the past. So fakes for ‘ordinary’ Ports are rare — but rare is not never.

Hard to see from the photos.

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 23:04 Tue 03 Dec 2019

Thanks for the reply - as always your comments are helpful. I’m not suggesting that this item is counterfeit, but it did lead me to wonder how often fakes infiltrate the market.
I caught the end of an article on the tv last week where counterfeit vintage whisky was being investigated - and which appeared to suggest they were inadvertently being passed through a well known online specialist auction site, that also deals with wine including VP. I have a relatively small collection of VP, compared to others, & friends/family sometimes treat me to a bottle or two - I guess I’m just trying to reassure myself that what I and others are buying for me can be verified, as best as can be.

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Andy Velebil » 05:26 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Do you have pics of the overall full bottle and the Selo (the white strip over the top of the bottle)? That would help

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AHB
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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by AHB » 13:38 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Sadly, vintage Port has been faked for a great many years. Recently there has been a real flood of fakes coming out of Portugal through an auction house, mostly of very old or very high end Port.

But people do fake Port, but people do also put their own labels on bottles which have lost or never had labels to help identification at home - or even old bottles which were reused once emptied. It is very tough to spot fakes, but there are people around and on this site who have the experience and knowledge to be able to spot fake Port bottles.
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Andy Velebil » 14:03 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Oh and picture of any back label too, if there is one.

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by PhilW » 14:37 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Hopkino wrote:
21:43 Tue 03 Dec 2019
The lettering is not as crisp as I would expect given the technology available in 77and the colours don’t seem right. I’m no expert, which is why I turned here for some advice. I keep meticulous records and I know from where this was purchased, which led me to thinking - how often are VP’s forged and how likely are they to be passed through the retail market?
It's always worth looking into it further when your gut tells you there may be something wrong; sometimes you find information that allays your fears, other times you substantiate them, but at least you can make any decisions on as much information as possible, rather than unnecessary assumption which may otherwise bite you later.

How often are VPs forged? Difficult to answer. At one stage I noticed that there seemed to be a few coming through, so I started to try and keep a track (see here) but while there have been plenty of potential fakes there are not a large number of confirmed ones. It would be expected that the primary targets for counterfeiters would be expensive bottles, hence very old and/or premium bottles; hence these should be subject to the most scrutiny also. This seems to be potentially confirmed by the bottles on the known fakes page, but this might just be confirmation bias - people are perhaps more likely to have found/reported fakes of more valuable items; whether it would be worthwhile faking lower-value items in small volume might be questionable.
Hopkino wrote:
23:04 Tue 03 Dec 2019
I guess I’m just trying to reassure myself that what I and others are buying for me can be verified, as best as can be.
Rather than being any means to verify, it is more checking that nothing appears wrong or unexpected, or if it is then whether there is a potentially valid reason, and taking into account the source, and adjusting your perception of risk (and hence any judgement of cost/value and purchasing decision) on that basis.

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 20:13 Wed 04 Dec 2019

At the risk of sounding like I’m gushing, thank you all very much for such informed responses. I always try and approach my gut instinct with a balanced view, so as not to overreact if you will. I’ve attached a couple of hdr photos, which I am hoping will show where my curiosity started. Unfortunately when uploading photos, this site is telling me that the file size is too big, so I’m having to downsize the quality. I know too that this isn’t a high end bottle, but given that my wife made this purchase as a gift for me, I wanted to double check.
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To my untrained eye, the bottle looks right, but I’m by know means an expert when compared to the knowledge and experience of most of you. There is no importer details on the label, which feels like a wax coated glossy print sticker. There’s no rear labelling either. I’m wondering if the bottle & contents are legitimate, but that it has been re-labelled. If indeed this is the case, it should clearly be indicated by the seller I’m sure. I’m a passionate collector, in-line with my affordability, and love to enjoy something with heritage and history.

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 20:27 Wed 04 Dec 2019

PhilW. Thank you for the link & most interestingly the label database I found too. Clearly the stock G77 differs immensely from that which I have posted.


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Andy Velebil
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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Andy Velebil » 21:43 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Is she sure there are magnums? I’ve never seen the embossed logo on a bottle for mags. They did it for most of the 750ml bottles.

I’d guess the label may be a reproduction applied after original came off. There are some things missing on it that should be there. Not totally uncommon.

And the Selo appears to have water damage where the label doesn’t.

I don’t see any indications it is not real.

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 21:59 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Andy Velebil wrote:Is she sure there are magnums? I’ve never seen the embossed logo on a bottle for mags. They did it for most of the 750ml bottles.

I’d guess the label may be a reproduction applied after original came off. There are some things missing on it that should be there. Not totally uncommon.

And the Selo appears to have water damage where the label doesn’t.

I don’t see any indications it is not real.
Thanks for the reply Andy - it’s a little reassuring, but you might have some of your wires crossed. The bottle I own has a label that appears to be reproduced - zooming in on the close up of the label I posted, you can clearly see copy errors on the lettering - in particular the red ink. Regarding the magnums though, which are owned by a friend, the following attached are pictures of those:ImageImageImage


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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by winesecretary » 22:14 Wed 04 Dec 2019

I don't know whether the contents of it are fake, but the label on the magnum"s almost certainly not right. Luis Gordon (note correct spelling) was then the Gordon of Gordon's wine bar who had a very big business way back then (they were the UK agents for Domecq if I recall).

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Andy Velebil » 22:20 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Hopkino wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:Is she sure there are magnums? I’ve never seen the embossed logo on a bottle for mags. They did it for most of the 750ml bottles.

I’d guess the label may be a reproduction applied after original came off. There are some things missing on it that should be there. Not totally uncommon.

And the Selo appears to have water damage where the label doesn’t.

I don’t see any indications it is not real.
Thanks for the reply Andy - it’s a little reassuring, but you might have some of your wires crossed. The bottle I own has a label that appears to be reproduced - zooming in on the close up of the label I posted, you can clearly see copy errors on the lettering - in particular the red ink. Regarding the magnums though, which are owned by a friend, the following attached are pictures of those:ImageImageImage


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Ah sorry gotcha. Thought those pics were of her mags. Label comments remain same.

As far as the mag label and importer you would have to compare to other known real bottles. Misspellings or shorter abbreviations were not unheard of. The bottle shape/color appear correct. Can you post pic of the mag Selo strip ( I can only see a tiny bit of the bottom).

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 22:21 Wed 04 Dec 2019

I’m clearly confusing matters. The magnums have no question regarding provenance- I understand that they were bought by my friends father in 1980, and laid ever since. He has 5 bottles left from originally 6. He has owned bars and restaurants throughout his entire career & recently retired. I’d originally stated that through a query about quality of the contents and possible value it has led me to examine my own bottle which, on examination, the label of my 75cl raises questions.


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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 22:29 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Image
Attached are pictures of 77’s recently sold through a reputable auction site that shows a very clear differential to what is on my bottle. I was hoping that there was a known standard, if you will, as to what label was placed onto this bottle at that time for the intended market. The bottle was bought for me, from a different but equally reputable, retailer specialising in VP.



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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Andy Velebil » 22:31 Wed 04 Dec 2019

Hopkino wrote:Image
Attached are pictures of 77’s recently sold through a reputable auction site that shows a very clear differential to what is on my bottle. I was hoping that there was a known standard, if you will, as to what label was placed onto this bottle at that time for the intended market. The bottle was bought for me, from a different but equally reputable, retailer specialising in VP.



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I will only say that there is NO 100% reputable auction house. I have found myself or seen others find fakes at every major auction house and then some. Where do you think Rudy K. sold tens of millions of dollars worth of fakes?

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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by DRT » 00:56 Thu 05 Dec 2019

Your have an authentic G77 bottle (the "Grahams 1977" branding that is part of the bottle gives it away!) with an authentic-looking embossed lead capsule and a re-printed label that was applied later. All else above is useless speculation.

Enjoy your bottle of Graham's 1977 :wink:
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Re: A market for fakes?

Post by Hopkino » 00:58 Thu 05 Dec 2019




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