Start a vintage collection

[DrNik]

Hello everyone.

I'm new to the forum. After a recent trip to Porto I have become interested in vintage ports and have decided to start a collection.
Since vintages are expensive I'd like to focus the first purchases on ports that can be enjoyed in the immediate future and then later supplement it with the likes of Fonseca 1985 and vintages from 1994 and 2011.

I have identified the following bottles with prices including shipping:

1970 Croft, £50
1977 Warre, £60
1977 Gould Campbell, £60
1983 Warre, £50
1983 Smith Woodhouse, £50
1983 Dow, £50
1985 Churchill, £30
1994 Romaneira, €25

I'm thinking I'd buy 6 bottles of each though I may have to split the collection with one or two others.

What do you think?

[DRT]

Hello and welcome to

All of those look like sound purchases to me and would be a great way to start your cellar.

Enjoy!

[djewesbury]

Excellent line-up. Good to include the Romaneira, good value port at that price.

[DrNik]

Thank you. I'm very excited about it.

[djewesbury]

Excellent line-up. Good to include the Romaneira, good value port at that price.

Did you find this in the UK? Or is it coming from Portugal?

EDIT: Silly question, just noticed that you listed this in Euro.

[DrNik]

Excellent line-up. Good to include the Romaneira, good value port at that price.

Did you find this in the UK? Or is it coming from Portugal?

EDIT: Silly question, just noticed that you listed this in Euro.

It's not a silly question because it's actually from Holland.

[RAYC]

Looks like a nice collection, perhaps a bit overweight on 83s (unless you were born in 1983) - personally i think you would have more fun re-allocating part of that budget to 1970! Gould Campbell 77 is often a great port but be prepared (especially, it seems, if purchasing in single bottles) for a higher risk of getting bottles with TCA (cork taint).

Two other things i would say:

(i) low price alone isn't necessarily the be-all and end-all - especially for older ports, I'd rather spend a bit more getting bottles in excellent condition (good fill level, nice colour when the bottle is held to the light, no signs of seepage from the cork / capsule) than in finding the absolute best bargains on price alone (40 years in bottle is a long time - a bottle of Fonseca 70 stored badly will bear no relation to a bottle stored under ideal conditions).

(ii) consider allocating some of your initial budget not to purchasing large quantities of bottles for storage / consumption at home but in attending tastings so that you can work out where your tastes lie and have the opportunity to try a lot more different bottles than if you only open from your own cellar. In addition, good buying opportunities will then often follow....

[idj123]

The Ch85 seems especially good value given that it showed better that both the T85 and F85 at a tasting we had when Glenn was over last year.

[djewesbury]

The Ch85 seems especially good value given that it showed better that both the T85 and F85 at a tasting we had when Glenn was over last year.

Forgot that. Yes, very true. Also agree with all Rob (RAYC) says. I notice on FTLOP some people recommended Fonseca 85 maybe. I think this is a nice idea but I would also think that perhaps some of your 83s could be diverted into some 70s. Fonseca 85 is not as scarce as they seem to think on FTLOP. There'll be time to get it.

[DrNik]

The Ch85 seems especially good value given that it showed better that both the T85 and F85 at a tasting we had when Glenn was over last year.

Forgot that. Yes, very true. Also agree with all Rob (RAYC) says. I notice on FTLOP some people recommended Fonseca 85 maybe. I think this is a nice idea but I would also think that perhaps some of your 83s could be diverted into some 70s. Fonseca 85 is not as scarce as they seem to think on FTLOP. There'll be time to get it.

That was my impression as well. Which 70s can be had for around the same price as the 83s?

[RAYC]

The Ch85 seems especially good value given that it showed better that both the T85 and F85 at a tasting we had when Glenn was over last year.

Forgot that. Yes, very true. Also agree with all Rob (RAYC) says. I notice on FTLOP some people recommended Fonseca 85 maybe. I think this is a nice idea but I would also think that perhaps some of your 83s could be diverted into some 70s. Fonseca 85 is not as scarce as they seem to think on FTLOP. There'll be time to get it.

That was my impression as well. Which 70s can be had for around the same price as the 83s?

Very few at the same "per bottle" price I should think. But obviously 12 x 1983 at £50 each is £600, which could buy you a smaller number of 1970 bottles if you were wanting to start your cellar with an emphasis on ports that will be at peak drinking over the next 10 years.

[djewesbury]

The Ch85 seems especially good value given that it showed better that both the T85 and F85 at a tasting we had when Glenn was over last year.

Forgot that. Yes, very true. Also agree with all Rob (RAYC) says. I notice on FTLOP some people recommended Fonseca 85 maybe. I think this is a nice idea but I would also think that perhaps some of your 83s could be diverted into some 70s. Fonseca 85 is not as scarce as they seem to think on FTLOP. There'll be time to get it.

That was my impression as well. Which 70s can be had for around the same price as the 83s?

Very few at the same "per bottle" price I should think. But obviously 12 x 1983 at £50 each is £600, which could buy you a smaller number of 1970 bottles if you were wanting to start your cellar with an emphasis on ports that will be at peak drinking over the next 10 years.

Exactly. And with 1970s it pays to keep an eye open and not just buy the first thing available: look for Graham, Warre, Dow 1970s, perhaps at auction and bide your time. Something will come up.

[Glenn E.]

I notice on FTLOP some people recommended Fonseca 85 maybe. I think this is a nice idea but I would also think that perhaps some of your 83s could be diverted into some 70s. Fonseca 85 is not as scarce as they seem to think on FTLOP. There'll be time to get it.

"They" don't think that on FTLOP. That was one post by Moses, who also posts here, and which was probably a typo on his part.

[Glenn E.]

The Ch85 seems especially good value given that it showed better that both the T85 and F85 at a tasting we had when Glenn was over last year.

Forgot that. Yes, very true. Also agree with all Rob (RAYC) says. I notice on FTLOP some people recommended Fonseca 85 maybe. I think this is a nice idea but I would also think that perhaps some of your 83s could be diverted into some 70s. Fonseca 85 is not as scarce as they seem to think on FTLOP. There'll be time to get it.

That was my impression as well. Which 70s can be had for around the same price as the 83s?

Very few at the same "per bottle" price I should think. But obviously 12 x 1983 at £50 each is £600, which could buy you a smaller number of 1970 bottles if you were wanting to start your cellar with an emphasis on ports that will be at peak drinking over the next 10 years.

Exactly. And with 1970s it pays to keep an eye open and not just buy the first thing available: look for Graham, Warre, Dow 1970s, perhaps at auction and bide your time. Something will come up.

Absolutely. I was able to get a case of G70 from Zachy's NY for $100/bottle all-in last year. G70 for $100 or G85/F85 for $80 isn't a difficult choice.

I got one case, another FTLOPer got one case, and a third case went unpurchased. I've been kicking myself for not going back after the auction to offer to buy the 3rd case for the same price.

[djewesbury]

I notice on FTLOP some people recommended Fonseca 85 maybe. I think this is a nice idea but I would also think that perhaps some of your 83s could be diverted into some 70s. Fonseca 85 is not as scarce as they seem to think on FTLOP. There'll be time to get it.

"They" don't think that on FTLOP. That was one post by Moses, who also posts here, and which was probably a typo on his part.

'They' (= you lot) are always worrying about impending port shortages on FTLOP! We do try to offset our bountiful supplies, whenever you come to visit, but it's just not often enough!

[Ed.W]

I'd like to jump on this wagon by asking a not-entirely unrelated question: having only gone as far back as 1985 in my forays into vintage port, which vintages, and indeed, port houses, are especially prone to TCA and make any purchases of such a port to be too risky? I've heard a lot of '77s are quite prone to this, which others are especially bad? (no further back than 1955 please)

[djewesbury]

I'd like to jump on this wagon by asking a not-entirely unrelated question: having only gone as far back as 1985 in my forays into vintage port, which vintages, and indeed, port houses, are especially prone to TCA and make any purchases of such a port to be too risky? I've heard a lot of '77s are quite prone to this, which others are especially bad? (no further back than 1955 please)

It isn't really a big problem before the 1970s, at least not in a way that it affects whole vintages. 77 was an especially bad year but there are bacteriological problems and more general hygiene problems of various kinds in other years: 83 was poor but there were some bad ones in 85 too. 72 was the year of the industrial alcohol scandal (annoying as it's my birth year), 75 was so soon after the revolution that it was a very difficult vintage and there were some particular problems around supply lines and storage and so on. 80 has some nice wines and certainly wasn't 'generally' affected. Once you get past the late 80s there are some more reliable years, if still weak. And some houses just seemed cursed with bad hygiene all the way through the 80s and 90s, notably Niepoort: Niepoort 2000 is the first completely 'clean' modern vintage.
The thing is that after the self-inflicted upheaval that was occasioned by the utterly unnecessary ending of bulk shipping, in 1973, the industry went into a tailspin. There was a revolution the next year, which saw northern Portugal largely split from the rest of the country politically; then there was a lot of overhasty 'modernisation' (much of it now undone) both in the wineries and in the vineyards; each problem or poor decision was compounded by the next, until by the late 80s the industry was reeling. So the various low points of TCA in 77 or VA in 83 were just a symptom of a much bigger problem.

[RAYC]

I'd like to jump on this wagon by asking a not-entirely unrelated question: having only gone as far back as 1985 in my forays into vintage port, which vintages, and indeed, port houses, are especially prone to TCA and make any purchases of such a port to be too risky? I've heard a lot of '77s are quite prone to this, which others are especially bad? (no further back than 1955 please)

Others may disagree / have others, but:

In terms of vintages:
1960 / 1963 / 1966 / 1967 / 1970 - I don't think I have noticed any in particular as being problematic
1975 - I don't particularly love the wines but can't recall noticing any as fundamentally problematic
1977 - I have experienced TCA issues with Gould Campbell and Dow, to a much lesser extent Fonseca. A lot of the Taylor that comes to market seems to have leaky corks, and my experience with Croft has been that there is a lot of bottle variation
1980 - No particular problem bottles that i am aware of
1982 - Churchill is a good port but does have TCA issues
1983 - Real TCA problems reported with Cockburn (which I've never tried), but otherwise must admit I haven't noticed particular problems
1985 - VA issues in particular in Niepoort & Croft. Churchill can suffer this too. Lots of further discussion on VA affecting 1985 VP here
1987 - Niepoort can be fantastic but again sometimes has excessive VA
1994 / 1997 - VA issues with Niepoort

In terms of producers:
late 70s, 80s and early 90s were difficult times for Noval, with little VP of note being produced between 1970 until 1994 (though 75 and 78 can both be OK, I seem to recall).
1970 - 2000 were also less-than-stellar periods for Sandeman and Croft, though there are nice-if-not-profound examples of both throughout (I'm rather fond of Sandeman 77, 82, 94, 97; Croft Roeda 80, 83 and 87 can all be solid wines on their day and Croft 91 holds good potential).

[LGTrotter]

I'd like to jump on this wagon by asking a not-entirely unrelated question: having only gone as far back as 1985 in my forays into vintage port, which vintages, and indeed, port houses, are especially prone to TCA and make any purchases of such a port to be too risky? I've heard a lot of '77s are quite prone to this, which others are especially bad? (no further back than 1955 please)

I shall now write a response which will not really answer the question.

I happen to like the 77s. I have even bought a few Dow 77 which has a terrible reputation. I have drunk with much pleasure Graham, Croft, Smith Woodhouse and I have just written a tasting note raving about the Fonseca. the 77s with a reputation for problems are I think Dow, Nierpoort, Taylor, if I am maligning one of these someone please put me right. As to the 83s I have no particular liking for the vintage but I have had no problems with Graham, Warre, Smith Woodhouse or Fonseca. Like Daniel I do not think this is much of a problem in the 1970 vintage or any before this. Sometimes it is worth having a look at the 'lesser' vintages. I have some 1960 ports which had a very poor reputation and were cheaper. I think they are delicious (particularly Croft) and their reputation has grown over the last few years. Experiment would be my advice, see what you like, buy some, then try something new. You will inevitably fall into some trap or another, I think most people do.

[LGTrotter]

To the original question about are the ports mentioned worth buying I would reply yes. But I might be tempted to buy fewer from 83. I like the idea of buying half a dozen of each, but like others here I would suggest casting your net a little wider and maybe buying fewer than 6 at a time. I do not think there is any great hurry to buy young port, unless you have good cellarage and are not planning to move.

[Ed.W]

Thanks, all.

Good to know that it's mainly the late '70s/early '80s that are a bit of a lottery in terms of being affected by VA and whatnot. I can't think of a huge number of wines from those vintages that I'm massively keen to try, although the Warre '83 seems to get a pretty good press from many on this forum (I think Mr Dewesbury wrote some complimentary remarks on it fairly recently)

[LGTrotter]

(I think Mr Dewesbury wrote some complimentary remarks on it fairly recently)

A slender reed to build a port collection on...

[RAYC]

(ii) consider allocating some of your initial budget not to purchasing large quantities of bottles for storage / consumption at home but in attending tastings so that you can work out where your tastes lie and have the opportunity to try a lot more different bottles than if you only open from your own cellar. In addition, good buying opportunities will then often follow....

Having seen from the FTLOP thread your location and proximity to Copenhagen (which is surely one of the top port-tasting meccas), I would re-emphasise this!

[djewesbury]

(I think Mr Dewesbury wrote some complimentary remarks on it fairly recently)

A slender reed to build a port collection on...

[PhilW]

(I think Mr Dewesbury wrote some complimentary remarks on it fairly recently)

A slender reed to build a port collection on...

Indeed, he's not that slender (says the man throwing stones from his glass house).