The colour of old Martinez

[LGTrotter]

I made a brief note on the thread of the review of The 58 tasting about the colour of the Martinez but it was swallowed by comments on the evening (fair enough, that is the title of the thread) so I thought I would post something here.

I was thinking that the only Martinez 55 I had was also notably dark. Having had a look through the tasting notes of Martinez between 1927 and 1960 there do seem to be a lot of them that make reference to them being very dark in colour. But my experience of the 63 is that is quite washed out as are the other later vintages I have tried (70, 82 and 85).

I had a thought that if it was the 'second wine' of Cockburn at this time perhaps this might account for it. The darker wines going into Martinez to preserve Cockburns medium character. On reflection this seems unlikely.

Is this just one of those things or are there other potential explanations?

[LGTrotter]

For example the 1927;' Very dark: as deep in colour as the Taylor 1955. Quite gentle on the nose, perhaps a touch muddy. In the mouth, a little fruit and some astringency.'
And the 1948; 'Mz48 (mine): dark red, 70% opaque. Faint nose. taste rich, some heat, very long. Really excellent. Some leather and smoked. Really liked.'
And the 1955; 'The 1955 Martinez was surprisingly youthful in the glass, it looked like it was 30 years younger!'
Also; 'Served blind. Deep red colour, clear centre, pale orange on the rim.'
There are more in a similar vein for the 55.
And the 1960; 'Almost as dark in colour as the Warre 1960 shown alongside'.

The 1960 note is less convincing but you get the picture.

[CaliforniaBrad]

The sole time I've had the '55, it was very youthful and dark, a fantastic bottle of wine.


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[DRT]

Is this just one of those things or are there other potential explanations?

Yes. Elderberries.

I might be wrong but I do believe I have seen and tasted enough vintage ports to be able to identify what is "normal" and what is "unusual" in the appearance of mature VP. There are some VPs that have a darker than average appearance but have a rich, golden hue that tells me they are a product of a great wine that is not yet fully mature. But there are wines that are unnaturally dark but do not possess the richness and subtlety of colour of a well-aged wine. They tend to look like treacle.

I firmly believe that a great deal of skulduggery occurred in the lagars until around 20/30 years ago until technology and regulatory scrutiny removed the possibility of foul play.

If you see a wine from that era that looks too good to believe it is probably too good to believe.

[Andy Velebil]

I firmly believe that a great deal of skulduggery occurred in the lagars until around 20/30 years ago until technology and regulatory scrutiny removed the possibility of foul play.

I believe you mean...reduced

Adulteration of Port still does happen. It just gets caught more by the larger companies when the incoming outside-sourced-lots are tested.

[LGTrotter]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

[CaliforniaBrad]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

I recall hearing the same, perhaps from Andy?


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[DRT]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

I agree with the colour part of that but haven't seen evidence of it having "separated out". I get very suspicious when I see completely opaque VP with a dark brownish tinge to the colour (think molasses or treacle). There are quite a few well known examples from big producers that are 30+ years old that have that appearance and a reputation for being extraordinarily "youthful" in appearance. There are also some much older, notably a couple of very famous 1931s.

[jdaw1]

I get very suspicious when I see completely opaque VP with a dark brownish tinge to the colour (think molasses or treacle). There are quite a few well known examples from big producers that are 30+ years old that have that appearance and a reputation for being extraordinarily "youthful" in appearance. There are also some much older, notably a couple of very famous 1931s.

And 1927 Niepoort, which was all-round fabulous.

[djewesbury]

I have a demijohn of elderberry wine in the kitchen which must be 15 years old. I will go and check its colour and 'separation'.

[LGTrotter]

I thought that the separation occurred between the grape juice and the elderberry juice. There are grape varieties in madeira wine which are immiscible. I wonder if that is what I'm thinking of.

[djewesbury]

I thought that the separation occurred between the grape juice and the elderberry juice. There are grape varieties in madeira wine which are immiscible. I wonder if that is what I'm thinking of.

Nice word. There is a high-falutin post-Marxist feminist deconstructionist post-colonial word that means something similar, way back in the day when I was writing my PhD I used to use it all the time, can't remember what it is now, the old bonce not being quite what it was. It isn't catachrestic, or incommensurate, though those were favourites too.
Have I still not stood up and gone to check this elderberry juice?

[djewesbury]

Ten-Year-Old Elderberry Wine

photo-22.JPG (38.89 KiB) Viewed 7033 times

The label on the demijohn says "12/04". The bung opened with a pop. This has not been disturbed for a very long time.
The colour, as can be seen above, is a very pale light orange, tinged perhaps with salmon. None of the elderberry purple has remained; I imagine that's all in the bottom of the demijohn.
On the nose I'm getting a very full, rich, concentrated, reductive range of tones. I'm reminded of southern French fortified wines; Rivesaltes, or Maury, maybe, and also even a hint of Madeira. It's warm, with wet oak, and it's also very spiritous. Honey. Figs, nuts. I would have sworn this to be a fortified wine of some sort by its nose.
The mouth though is very strange. It begins thin, light, and acid, and then turns very dry indeed. It's rather bitter (though not necessarily in a horrendous way) or even a little sour. It's a bit reminiscent of the hoppy dryness on a very astringent IPA. The finish is of medium length and actually quite impressive; a subtle toasted nut note (or is it toasted toast?), a clean dry sensation on the tongue, this is by no means disgusting.

EDIT: 20 mins or so later, my mouth is still dry and there is the ghost of bitter cherries.

[LGTrotter]

Thank you Daniel. Is this the end of the elderberry adulteration theory? So what do they adulterate it with?

Also I rather liked the 55 Martinez. If that is adulterated then adulterate away, say I.

[Andy Velebil]

Yes. Elderberries.

I think I read that elderberries looked good and dark when the wine was young but went brown and separated out as they aged. No idea where I came across this, or if there is any truth in it.

I recall hearing the same, perhaps from Andy?


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A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens


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[DRT]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

[LGTrotter]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

I would be keen to try a port which is known to have elderberries in it. Are there any known, definitively to have them in? Any producers put their hands up to this, even off the record?

[Andy Velebil]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

Brownish tinge as you say.

A certain CEO told us it had elderberries during a certain large FG tasting.


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[RonnieRoots]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

I would be keen to try a port which is known to have elderberries in it. Are there any known, definitively to have them in? Any producers put their hands up to this, even off the record?

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

[DRT]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

Brownish tinge as you say.

A certain CEO told us it had elderberries during a certain large FG tasting.


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As did a wine maker and a prominent Port author.

It's lovely juice.

[Andy Velebil]

A number of us were told it drops color very quickly some years after being added to Port and turns a brownish color. It also gives it a weird taste as can be sampled in the 1976 Fonseca Guimaraens

Those two sentences contradict one another. FG76 is as black as coal (with a brownish tinge).

Brownish tinge as you say.

A certain CEO told us it had elderberries during a certain large FG tasting.


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As did a wine maker and a prominent Port author.

It's lovely juice.

Yes it is. But it definitely stands out with flavors more toward an old PX Sherry. Lol.

Ronnie, I never say no to drinking Old Port


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[DRT]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

Or, some of us could pop over to Amsterdam and taste it for you?

[LGTrotter]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

And there isn't any on UK wine searcher.

[jdaw1]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

Or, some of us could pop over to Amsterdam and taste it for you?

Case tasting of FG76: splendid plan. Thank you Ronnie.

[LGTrotter]

The above mentioned FG76. I have plenty bottles of it and am happy to share one if I'm ever in London again.

That is very cruel given that you just moved to New Zealand

Or, some of us could pop over to Amsterdam and taste it for you?

Case tasting of FG76: splendid plan. Thank you Ronnie.

+ weekend in the Dam.