Sweeter further inland?
Sweeter further inland?
I recently read this,
Martinez's lodge in Vila Nova da Gaia is right next door to the somewhat better known Cockburn's and they started off life as an importer of port into London over two hundred years ago. At their peak in the mid 1800's, Martinez was the largest importer into the UK as they used to ship a lot in bulk having matured their wine in the Douro Valley rather than in Vila Nova which is at the mouth of the river. This causes what is called 'Douro Bake' as it is gets hotter as you go further inland and produces a somewhat sweeter wine. These days the wines are matured in Vila Nova where the maturation is slower and more gentle due to the influence of the sea.
Is that right? Are there more Port Houses who's taste is noticably sweeter due to the position of its storage depots. I suppose when they spend decades there, it would make sense that it had some form of impact?
Alan
Martinez's lodge in Vila Nova da Gaia is right next door to the somewhat better known Cockburn's and they started off life as an importer of port into London over two hundred years ago. At their peak in the mid 1800's, Martinez was the largest importer into the UK as they used to ship a lot in bulk having matured their wine in the Douro Valley rather than in Vila Nova which is at the mouth of the river. This causes what is called 'Douro Bake' as it is gets hotter as you go further inland and produces a somewhat sweeter wine. These days the wines are matured in Vila Nova where the maturation is slower and more gentle due to the influence of the sea.
Is that right? Are there more Port Houses who's taste is noticably sweeter due to the position of its storage depots. I suppose when they spend decades there, it would make sense that it had some form of impact?
Alan
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The Douro region didn't get electricity until the early to mid 1970's. Quinta de Vargellas first got electricity about 1975. Now days almost everything is temp controlled in the Douro, so Douro Bake should be completely a thing of the past in the near future.
As far as making it sweeter because of Douro Bake, I would have to disagree. Douro Bake imparts some burnt fruit flavors to the wine. I havn't seen any baked wine that was sweeter as a result of being exposed to too much heat. I think they may be refering to the fact that better grapes come from the Douro Superior where it is warmer...a bit of translation problem
As far as making it sweeter because of Douro Bake, I would have to disagree. Douro Bake imparts some burnt fruit flavors to the wine. I havn't seen any baked wine that was sweeter as a result of being exposed to too much heat. I think they may be refering to the fact that better grapes come from the Douro Superior where it is warmer...a bit of translation problem
- uncle tom
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I think electricity was around long before then, but Vargellas has been remarked on for not getting itself connected until relatively recently.
Certainly, the widespread use of refrigeration systems is very recent, and on-going.
Tom
Certainly, the widespread use of refrigeration systems is very recent, and on-going.
Tom
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
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Tom, generated electricity has been around for over 100 years
From what I was told last year, the majority of the Douro region was without electricity until the early to mid 70's. So it wasn't just Vargellas that was without power. I'll be back there in less than 2 weeks, so I'll ask and find out for sure.
From what I was told last year, the majority of the Douro region was without electricity until the early to mid 70's. So it wasn't just Vargellas that was without power. I'll be back there in less than 2 weeks, so I'll ask and find out for sure.
I'll await the report from General-Electric, but how about the original point?
Does Martinez from most of this century have a csweeter taste than most?
Nowadays I accept its all Temperature controlled, more chemically prepared, never goes to Gaia, and its carted away in commercial tankers.
But when the majority were stored in Gaia, did Matinez being stored much closer to the vinyards have a significant impact on taste?
If no-one knows, maybe Andy could throw it in as a question one day at one of his lunches, when 'On Tour!'.
Alan
Does Martinez from most of this century have a csweeter taste than most?
Nowadays I accept its all Temperature controlled, more chemically prepared, never goes to Gaia, and its carted away in commercial tankers.
But when the majority were stored in Gaia, did Matinez being stored much closer to the vinyards have a significant impact on taste?
If no-one knows, maybe Andy could throw it in as a question one day at one of his lunches, when 'On Tour!'.
Alan
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I don't associate a "baked" wine with being sweeter. When a bottle of wine is baked (or cooked as its often called here in the states ) it gets this burnt fruit smell and taste. I would not say its sweeter, but rather more like stewed fruit. When my grandmother used to cook fruit for bottling, it became really tart not sweet.
Ok, there is my haphazard guess.
Ok, there is my haphazard guess.
- StevieCage
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Stevie,StevieCage wrote:Douro bake and cooked wine should note be confused - IIRC, the term originally refered to a more caramel-like flavour in Tawny Ports aged in the Douro. A taste, mind you, not meaning that they might actually *are* sweeter.
I'm with you on this one. I've no real knowledge on this subject, but everything I read and hear, seems to back up what you seem to be saying.
Most of our lads talk in terms of the Bake being a flaw. An overstewed taste that spoils the Port. The Portuguese refer to it as a slight taste variation. A slightly stronger fruit, or, as you said, a caramel taste, which should still have the drink as 'drinkable'.
Thats where I think the quote I found, was also coming from. The slightly higher, hotter, and more volatile storing conditions up river, had produced a sweeter taste. Subtle, and fragrant, but perceptible. Not strong and ruined.
Of course the only one who's chirped up with some experience, Tom, has said he didn't notice any such thing.
Alan
My only experience of Bake was the early Vesuvio's in the now legendary complete vertical at the Quinta in October 06. I don't think I would ever think of it as a flaw, just something that gives the wine an unusual characteristic that separates it from the traditional expectaions of a VP.
Derek
Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
Derek,
As your nipping down for the weekend...Not sure were I picked that snippet up...oh, that's right, YOU kept telling me!!! (There's no Envious Emoticon)
Could you throw in the question about 'Bake' and Storage. See what the locals say. I'll completely understand if it deteriorates into your Alley McCloud song, but you have to try.
Alan
As your nipping down for the weekend...Not sure were I picked that snippet up...oh, that's right, YOU kept telling me!!! (There's no Envious Emoticon)
Could you throw in the question about 'Bake' and Storage. See what the locals say. I'll completely understand if it deteriorates into your Alley McCloud song, but you have to try.
Alan
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I think I need a full un-interrupted line-up of classic vintages from the past 5 decades with baked and un-baked samples from each vintage if this is to be a serious experiment that will produce meaningful dataADV wrote:tell them you want samples of Douro baked wine so you can evaluate it for yourselfDerek T. wrote:Will do - and I will also ask the question about Bake
Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn