TCA Taint removal

[PhilW]

On researching another issue, I came across information which appeared to be genuine on methods for TCA removal. I am interested to know if anyone here has attempted this, and if so their success.

From here, and more specifically a reference here, it would appear that temporary addition of a Polyethylene artifact to the port for a few minutes may reduce the TCA to undetectable levels. So a few questions:

1. Has anyone ever tried this?
2. Has anyone ever succeded at removal of TCA by this (or other) method?
3. Any suggestions for a suitable Polyethylene item to use for this purpose? (container into which the port could be decanted, for example, or item which could be placed into decanter for a few minutes and then removed)

Phil.

[RAYC]

DRT has been known to use a scrumpled wad of cling film. See here

I myself have never tried. But reading the thread makes me wonder why we don't go to tastings armed with cling film just in case.

[PhilW]

DRT has been known to use a scrumpled wad of cling film. See here

Aha, I guessed it might have been tried.

I myself have never tried. But reading the thread it makes me wonder why we don't go to tastings armed with cling film just in case.

I was wondering about cling film, whether it might be sufficiently "polyethelyne-only". I was similarly wondering about PET (as used in bottle format to hold tasting samples) - I would think it would be particularly useful to know whether PET (in this form) has the same properties as polyethelyne as referenced by the professor, since it would be trivial to use a bottle of this type as a container for the initial decant, for example.

[JacobH]

I notice (via. an advert on Wikipedia) that someone has started manufacturing a device for this purpose called the Dream Taste. It looks like a jug into which a polyethelyne bunch of grapes is placed and the wine poured over. Seems a fairly sensible way of doing it; having the polyethelyne as a bunch of grapes should give quite a big surface area. No mention on the site as to how many times each ‟bunch” can be used, though.

[PhilW]

I also came across this which appears to be one of the methods used by wine manufacturers prior to bottling. Although it looks as though it is only supplied for commercial high volume use, I wondered if it might be possible for us to obtain samples of this to test decanting through next time a TCA-tainted port is encountered.

[JacobH]

I also came across this which appears to be one of the methods used by wine manufacturers prior to bottling. Although it looks as though it is only supplied for commercial high volume use, I wondered if it might be possible for us to obtain samples of this to test decanting through next time a TCA-tainted port is encountered.

I can't quite work out from their website whether it is a chemical removal (like the polyethelyne solution) or a mechanical one (like a normal filtration). If it is the later than using a sample of this at a tasting might be a bit difficult unless someone has a table-top compressor! I also wonder how much of the flavour or aroma would be removed by the process. The graph they include is firmly in the "surprisingly unhelpful" category!

Commercially, the problems with these sorts of things is they only deal with systemic taint caused by something in the winery and can't protect against dodgy corks.

[uncle tom]

There is a system for batch-testing corks for TCA (mentioned on the Malvedos blog a while back) and I wonder if it feasible to develop a machine that could test every single cork - expensive, but possibly worth it for the top ports.

- Does anyone have the detail of the testing system used?

Tom

[DRT]

I also came across this which appears to be one of the methods used by wine manufacturers prior to bottling. Although it looks as though it is only supplied for commercial high volume use, I wondered if it might be possible for us to obtain samples of this to test decanting through next time a TCA-tainted port is encountered.

Very interesting. Definitely worth trying to get a hold of some of this stuff to give it a try given the relatively high incidence of cork taint in mature ports.

[PhilW]

There is a system for batch-testing corks for TCA

- Does anyone have the detail of the testing system used?

In the reading around the subject I've been doing, one method appears to be to soak a batch of corks in a 'representative simple wine' for a defined period, measuring the TCA present in the solution (primarily using gas chromatography it seems) and then discarding the batch of corks if the result is too high. One interesting summary is here, which also raises some questions about result validity for port vs wine (e.g. due to the typically higher level of alcohol, the longer storage involved, and presence of lees during the storage).

Definitely worth trying to get a hold of some of this stuff to give it a try given the relatively high incidence of cork taint in mature ports.

I am going to try and obtain some. I note that at the quoted flow rate of 350L/m2/hr, this is equivalent to passing a bottle of port through a 5x5cm square of the material over approximately 50minutes - a pretty slow decant (increasing the filter area is viable by clever design as used in the cylindrical industrial filters) - but it would be very interesting to my mind to examine the effectiviness of soaking the filter in the port, as opposed to filtering the port through it; leaving a 5x5cm square (or larger) in the decanter for an hour, for example, would be highly practicable.

[uncle tom]

Derek,

I'd have to play with a piece to remind myself how to do it, but there is an old bit of lab origami that involves folding a filter paper in such a way as to increase the flow rate by increasing the surface area, and keeping part of it away from the funnel wall at the same time.

With a small vacuum pump, you could also assemble a simple lab filter pump..

Tom

[PhilW]

I'd have to play with a piece to remind myself how to do it, but there is an old bit of lab origami that involves folding a filter paper in such a way as to increase the flow rate by increasing the surface area, and keeping part of it away from the funnel wall at the same time.

With a small vacuum pump, you could also assemble a simple lab filter pump..

I guess that could be along the lines of the 'ruff' style often used in coffee filters or something more complex. The special filter inserts that Filtrox use is far more complex design-wise.

I don't (yet) know whether the flow rate is defined to allow sufficient contact time for removal vs filtration rate to prevent particles being 'pushed through' (or a combination thereof) - the physical filtering might be a side-benefit in regards to our potential use for TCA removal. Have made some enquiries, will post any info obtained.

Phil (not Derek )

[PhilW]

I've had an initial reply from the manufacturer of the FIBRAFIX TX-R, which indicated they didn't think it would be likely suitable for single-bottle use; However, the "mini-capsule" is their smallest version (don't know actual size, although I have a photo) and the requirement is liquid under pressure >0.1bar for the filtration and I've replied to discuss the viability of using vacuum pump and sidearm flask for this and will update with any further info recieved.

I'm aware that this method might be undesirably expensive in the general case, depending on cost and re-usability (if any) of the mini-capsule, but I think first step is knowing if it could work - and then based on costs etc whether/when it might be worthwhile (e.g. on the TCA-tainted 1927 that was just opened...)

[DRT]

I've had an initial reply from the manufacturer of the FIBRAFIX TX-R, which indicated they didn't think it would be likely suitable for single-bottle use; However, the "mini-capsule" is their smallest version (don't know actual size, although I have a photo) and the requirement is liquid under pressure >0.1bar for the filtration and I've replied to discuss the viability of using vacuum pump and sidearm flask for this and will update with any further info recieved.

I'm aware that this method might be undesirably expensive in the general case, depending on cost and re-usability (if any) of the mini-capsule, but I think first step is knowing if it could work - and then based on costs etc whether/when it might be worthwhile (e.g. on the TCA-tainted 1927 that was just opened...)

You could tell them that if they want to conduct trials into the viability of using their products for single-bottle use the chaps at would be happy to be their official test team

[PhilW]

I haven't yet received a reply to my last follow-up email asking regarding viability of vacuum method for single bottle use. I have also asked whether they could supply a couple of sample FIBRAFIX TX-R mini-filters for us to use for own our trial, but my contact is away until early October.

[PhilW]

Unfortunately, nothing further from Filtrox on this, but then single-bottle processing isn't exactly their target market ofc.
Have another plan up my sleeve, will report back later.