Crusted port database

Anything to do with Port.
Post Reply
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:05 Mon 22 Nov 2010

Dolamore, September 1981
Image
Prices are £ per case and per bottle.

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:08 Mon 22 Nov 2010

Dolamore, October 1982
Image
Prices are £ per case and per bottle.

User avatar
JacobH
Taylor Quinta de Vargellas 1987
Posts: 2420
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by JacobH » 09:16 Mon 22 Nov 2010

jdaw1 wrote:Winter 1966/1967, from Edwin Giddings Ltd, then of 28 St John Street, Devizes, now of 15 St John Street
Image
Are the Croft and Taylor more likely to be LBVs rather than Crusteds? I can't think of another explanation for two dates on the bottle.
Image

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15556
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by DRT » 19:33 Mon 22 Nov 2010

JacobH wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Winter 1966/1967, from Edwin Giddings Ltd, then of 28 St John Street, Devizes, now of 15 St John Street
Image
Are the Croft and Taylor more likely to be LBVs rather than Crusteds? I can't think of another explanation for two dates on the bottle.
No, no, no. How could they possibly be LBV when it wasn't "invented" until Noval released their 1958 and then "invented" again by Taylor when the released their 1965? Not wishing to single out these two houses, there seems to have been lots of others who "invented" LBV at various times :lol:

I agree, these are LBVs. But the term wasn't in common useage at the time so it probably made more sense to describe them as Crusted.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
JacobH
Taylor Quinta de Vargellas 1987
Posts: 2420
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by JacobH » 21:26 Mon 22 Nov 2010

DRT wrote:
JacobH wrote:Are the Croft and Taylor more likely to be LBVs rather than Crusteds? I can't think of another explanation for two dates on the bottle.
No, no, no. How could they possibly be LBV when it wasn't "invented" until Noval released their 1958 and then "invented" again by Taylor when the released their 1965? Not wishing to single out these two houses, there seems to have been lots of others who "invented" LBV at various times :lol:

I agree, these are LBVs. But the term wasn't in common useage at the time so it probably made more sense to describe them as Crusted.
These comments beg another question: when was the expression ‟late bottled vintage” first used? Doing a quick search of the Usual Free Sources, I can’t find any mention before André Simon’s Vintagewise where he comments (in 1945):

‟A rather unusual and very agreeable recollection which I also treasure is that of a bottle of Graham 1878, bottled in 1882, which Ian Campbell gave us at his office one hot August day, in 1929; the occasion was the anniversary of his wedding day, and although we rather wished he had chosen the winter to get married, this charming late-bottled vintage Port managed to beat the weather.” [thanks to jdaw1 for the transcription]

The next mention is in his 1946 Wine Primer where it has lost the hyphen (which, thinking about, we really ought to campaign to have restored). I can’t find any other pre-1950 use of the expression.
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 22:16 Mon 22 Nov 2010

Balls Brothers of London, Wine List Summer ’82.
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 22:21 Mon 22 Nov 2010

David Baillie Vintners, at the Sign of the Lucky Horseshoe, 86 Longbrook Street, Exeter, Devonshire
Summer 1986
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 23:11 Mon 22 Nov 2010

Peter Bedford Limited, Wine & Cigar Merchant, Leamington Spa and Warwick, 1967/8.
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 23:25 Mon 22 Nov 2010

Bentalls, October 1975
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 00:24 Tue 23 Nov 2010

The Butlers Wine Cellar, Brighton, Christmas 1989
Image
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 22:38 Tue 23 Nov 2010

The 1994 Davisons Wine Collection
Price List Summer 1994
Image
Prices per single bottle, and per bottle in a mixed case.

There are no Gould Campbells on the list.

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 23:02 Tue 23 Nov 2010

The Fulham Road Wine Centre, in an undated wine list giving a phone number beginning 071 (implying not much before 06 May 1990) and containing one wine of vintage 1990 (suggesting ≈1991).
Image

User avatar
uncle tom
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3084
Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Near Saffron Walden, England

Re: Crusted port database

Post by uncle tom » 17:01 Wed 24 Nov 2010

These comments beg another question: when was the expression ‟late bottled vintage” first used?
Without wishing to get into a debate over semantics, I think one needs to draw a distinction between a vintage port that happened to be bottled late, and a port that was deliberately marketed as Late Bottled Vintage.

The test, I would suggest, is the use of the term in a merchant's catalogue, and as far as I know, the Wine Society holds the distinction of using the term first in 1964 for a Fonseca Q. Mileu 1958, also bottled in 1964.

Tom

PS: List now updated.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 19:26 Wed 24 Nov 2010

Hurlingham Vintners, undated list of about the late 1970s.
Image

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15556
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by DRT » 20:24 Wed 24 Nov 2010

uncle tom wrote:The test, I would suggest, is the use of the term in a merchant's catalogue, and as far as I know, the Wine Society holds the distinction of using the term first in 1964 for a Fonseca Q. Mileu 1958, also bottled in 1964.
That's not a bad test to apply, Tom, and Julian and I are on the lookout for other examples. Something I think is worth adding to the criteria as being what we now term LBV is that the wine should have been Oporto bottled - i.e. designed and produced as LBV by the shipper, not turned into LBV by a merchant.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
uncle tom
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3084
Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Near Saffron Walden, England

Re: Crusted port database

Post by uncle tom » 21:58 Wed 24 Nov 2010

Something I think is worth adding to the criteria as being what we now term LBV is that the wine should have been Oporto bottled
I can see your reasoning; but if the Mileu '58 (which was English bottled) was shipped shortly before bottling, and had not languished, forgotton, in the WS's warehouse for a few years (thereby making the LB element merely expedient), I would suggest that it qualifies.

As the WS appears to have good archives; perhaps the purchase date of that consignment can be established.

Tom
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

User avatar
JacobH
Taylor Quinta de Vargellas 1987
Posts: 2420
Joined: 16:37 Sat 03 May 2008
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by JacobH » 00:01 Thu 25 Nov 2010

uncle tom wrote:Without wishing to get into a debate over semantics, I think one needs to draw a distinction between a vintage port that happened to be bottled late, and a port that was deliberately marketed as Late Bottled Vintage.

The test, I would suggest, is the use of the term in a merchant's catalogue, and as far as I know, the Wine Society holds the distinction of using the term first in 1964 for a Fonseca Q. Mileu 1958, also bottled in 1964.
Oh, yes, indeed. What I was interested in was something slightly different; when was the phrase ‟late bottled vintage port” first coined, rather than when the product it describes came about. There is no particular reason why a vintage port bottled 4 years after a harvest should be called a ‟late bottled vintage” any more than it should be called ‟cellar reserve” or anything else; so someone must have coined the phrase at some stage, and I wonder if that was André Simon. For an interesting comparison, using the same free sources produces references to ‟crusted port” from as far back as 1799, but the earliest use of the expression ‟vintage port” seems to be from the 1850s...

Also, and changing subject, do you know anything else about Quinta Mileu (e.g. where is it and whether any other SQP has been made from it?).
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:20 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, Xmas 1930.
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:25 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, Xmas 1930.
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:38 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, Xmas 1960.
Image
If this is vintage 1954 bottled ’56, that isn’t obviously late.

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:49 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1964.
Image
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:52 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1965.
Image
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:53 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1981.
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:56 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1981.
Image

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21902
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Crusted port database

Post by jdaw1 » 01:58 Thu 25 Nov 2010

Christopher & Co. Ltd, October 1984.
Image

Post Reply