Crusted port database

[SushiNorth]

Crusted has never included the vintage (year of vinification) but only the bottling year. If a vintage (year of vinification) is included on the label plus a bottling year it will effectivly be an LBV or non-declared vintage port.

This would suggest that the real value in all this data is to create a list of non-declared VPs, which in itself might make for an interesting tasting.

[jdaw1]

Dominic: My understanding, perhaps wrong, is that VP is aged in giant Tonnels for not more than two-ish years. From there it can go directly into bottle, or, ≤1970 vintage, into a much smaller shipper’s pipe for transport to, and subsequent bottling in, the UK. LBV used to be late-in-the-UK, meaning two in Tonnel, more in shipper’s pipe, then into bottle. Was it always true that Crusted/ing never spent more than a couple of years in Tonnel? If so, it really was an LBV. But if Crusted/ing sometimes aged awhile in Tonnels, then, at least up to 1970, it was fundamentally different to LBV.

[uncle tom]

Dom,

In compiling this database, I have worked on the principle that if the label says Crusted, then Crusted it is. With the older bottles, and catalogue entries, it is often hard to determine if the content is Crusted as we know it today, or an ancestor of LBV or SQVP.

But while we have your attention on the subject, how about bottling a second wine from Vesuvio each year, and marketing that as a Crusted port?

- Just an idea!

Tom

[Dom Symington]

well that certainly woke everyone up!
Tom, very fair comment although I'm not sure I'll bring up your second point at tomorrow's Board Meeting!
Julian, generally correct although the bottling was very much a question of merchants choice (and conviction in some cases). There was no firm rule as to the age of the blend for Crusted/ing. The difference also one would assume is that ...ed was pre-aged by the wine merchant and that ...ing was sold on bottling for further ageing!

Just back from a day at Vesuvio, Vintage in the last stretch although the weather certainly looks like it may take a turn for the worse ... we still have 5 or so days to go. Fingers crossed!

[DRT]

Thanks for you recent activity here, Dom - very interesting! (although I am minded to think that part of your motivation is to see what comes next in the ranks after "cheap ruby" )

Good luck with the last stretch of the harvest.

Given the discussion above I think we need some facts around which to frame the definitions. I will trawl through my books later to see when the various styles were defined. I will then take some mind-bending drugs and read Julian's last post again to attempt to understand what he is trying to say

[jdaw1]

and read Julian's last post again to attempt to understand what he is trying to say

At least at the start of LBV, it spent two years in Tonnels, and was then shipped to the UK in shipper’s pipe. So, if a style of port let’s call it Crusted has two years in Tonnel and ages in shipper’s pipe, it’s just like an LBV. But if this mysterious ‘Crusted’ stuff spends ages and ages in Tonnel, then it isn’t like an (early) LBV.

[uncle tom]

The difference also one would assume is that ...ed was pre-aged by the wine merchant and that ...ing was sold on bottling for further ageing!

This raises the interesting question as to whether Crusting port (as Dom defines) could be legally sold today?

Battling through the Portuguese of the IVDP regulations, I can only find reference to the word Crusted so presumably Crusting is an unregulated term.

And although it rarely appears, there does not seem to be anything to stop a producer putting the bottling date on a Reserve.

So could we have, for example, 'TPF Crusting Port' (writ large on the label) 'Bottled in 2010' (writ only slightly smaller) and then 'A blend of unfiltered fine reserve ports, supplied by Symington family estates...etc' (in small print at the bottom) ?

If booked out as a Reserve, it could presumably be shipped immediately.

- or have I missed something?

Tom

[DRT]

and read Julian's last post again to attempt to understand what he is trying to say

At least at the start of LBV, it spent two years in Tonnels, and was then shipped to the UK in shipper’s pipe. So, if a style of port let’s call it Crusted has two years in Tonnel and ages in shipper’s pipe, it’s just like an LBV. But if this mysterious ‘Crusted’ stuff spends ages and ages in Tonnel, then it isn’t like an (early) LBV.

Ah, so you are attributing the difference to the size of the wooden cask in which the port is aged prior to bottling. I may be wrong but I don't think that is relevant. The thing that would make the difference in "style" (in an official sense) is the length of time in wood, not the size of the cask.

I am sure there are some small producers out there who make their LBV in small vats or pipes simply because they only make small quantities. Some of the big boys might bottle straight from the Tonnel whilst others might give their wines some time in smaller casks to speed-up the evolution process so that their LBV's are ready to drink as soon as they are bottled. None of this would bar them from classifying the wine as LBV.

Am I missing something?

[g-man]

and read Julian's last post again to attempt to understand what he is trying to say

At least at the start of LBV, it spent two years in Tonnels, and was then shipped to the UK in shipper’s pipe. So, if a style of port let’s call it Crusted has two years in Tonnel and ages in shipper’s pipe, it’s just like an LBV. But if this mysterious ‘Crusted’ stuff spends ages and ages in Tonnel, then it isn’t like an (early) LBV.

Ah, so you are attributing the difference to the size of the wooden cask in which the port is aged prior to bottling. I may be wrong but I don't think that is relevant. The thing that would make the difference in "style" (in an official sense) is the length of time in wood, not the size of the cask.

I am sure there are some small producers out there who make their LBV in small vats or pipes simply because they only make small quantities. Some of the big boys might bottle straight from the Tonnel whilst others might give their wines some time in smaller casks to speed-up the evolution process so that their LBV's are ready to drink as soon as they are bottled. None of this would bar them from classifying the wine as LBV.

Am I missing something?

Are ports stored in neutral or toasted barrels?

the smaller the barrel, the more the toast of the barrel will impart flavors upon the smaller liquid volume no?

I would imagine the surface area of a smaller barrel to liquid ratio of a small barrel is greater then the same ratio on a bigger barrel. Probably giving a more vanilla/oak if barrels were even lightly toasted before bottling.

[DRT]

Are ports stored in neutral or toasted barrels?

Neutral.

The difference between large and small casks for port is the speed of oxidation. The larger the cask the slower the oxidation.

[g-man]

Are ports stored in neutral or toasted barrels?

Neutral.

The difference between large and small casks for port is the speed of oxidation. The larger the cask the slower the oxidation.

i wonder if individuals can buy these after aged barrels =)

I've got a 30lb pig I'm looking to smoke!

[Dom Symington]

Derek, you are partly right ...!
Crusted is now the only permitted version and the wines are certified on bottling, must be cellared for a minimum of 3 years before release and undergo a second certifictaion from the IVDP prior to final release to market.
The "toast" on port barrels is a red-herring, all port is always aged in seasoned tonnels or pipes, never new wood. The only "toast" they get is when being made in the cooperage when water and a brazier are used to bend the staves and is frankly not significant. I can see that on your next visit we'll have to spend some time in the cooperage!
Julian, although broadly right I don't think you should get too fixed on 2 years in tonnels etc... This time scale only came into formal use recently. In the past, the age prior to bottling and shipment was up to each individual, and considering that until the demise of bulk shipments Crusted/Crusting wasn't even recognised by the IVP (at the time with no D!). We used to ship "Crusted" for UK bottling as a Reserve.

In all these permutations the secret is for the blend to have the ability to throw a crust and therefore evolve in bottle. The longer in cask (of any size - faster ageing if smaller/slower if larger) the softer the wine will become irrespective of its ability to throw a crust.

[uncle tom]

Dom,

Do you think the IVDP would take issue with the use of the word Crusting as part of the brand name for an unfiltered Reserve?

Tom

[Dom Symington]

Tom. I have absolutely no doubt that they would! We live in an extrodinarily regulated environment which unfortunately has very little imagination or simple marketing experience and believes that restriction is the best solution! ... aka, despite what some of the worthy members of this forum may feel (with due apologies!), Pink was case in example!

[uncle tom]

Dom,

Thanks - I was actually quite surprised that Pink was allowed, as it seemed to denigrate the product class as a whole; and while some producers have now managed to produce an acceptable Rose port, the earliest samples were truly awful. Although the word offers an alliteration, I still think that 'Pink' is an inappropriate descriptor for a product class that has a hard fought reputation for quality and distinction.

Moving on, I do have a serious interest in procuring products that have an appeal to niche markets. Even if Crusting is too close to Crusted to place it off-limits on the label, I am still interested in routinely buying a quality, unfiltered and ageworthy Reserve that has the year of bottling clearly indicated on the label. Quantities would not be huge, but commerically viable. If you are interested, please ask your marketing guys to contact me privately.

Tom

[jdaw1]

From the 1966/7 price list of Henekeys and Backs of Norwich


I know that there is no bottling date you can see what I can see.

[jdaw1]

Winter 1965/1966, from Edwin Giddings Ltd, then of 28 St John Street, Devizes, now of 15 St John Street

[jdaw1]

Winter 1966/1967, from Edwin Giddings Ltd, then of 28 St John Street, Devizes, now of 15 St John Street

[jdaw1]

! of which the Graham 1950 and Taylor 1952/56 are not currently in the list.

[jdaw1]

Dolamore Wine List Summer 1973


Prices are per £ bottle for: six cases; one case; a single bottle.

[jdaw1]

Dolamore Wine List Autumn 1973

Prices are £ per bottle for: six cases; one case; a single bottle.

[jdaw1]

Dolamore Wine List Summer 1974

Prices are £ per bottle for: six cases; one case; a single bottle.

[jdaw1]

Dolamore Wine List Summer 1975

Prices are £ per bottle for: six cases; one case; a single bottle.

[jdaw1]

Dolamore Abridged Spring List 1977

Prices are £ per case for: ‟12 Cases Assorted”; ‟6 Cases Assorted”; ‟One Case”.

[jdaw1]

Dolamore Abridged Winter Wine List 1978-79 Wholesale

Prices are £ per case for: ‟7 Cases Assorted”; ‟One Case”.