Advice please Gentlemen

Anything to do with Port.
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AHB
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by AHB » 23:13 Sat 20 Dec 2008

Gonzo - just check your notes for the Vargellas 1995. I believe that you may have posted a copy of the note for the Vargellas Vinha Velha and not for the regular Vargellas. The wines are different with the Vinha Velha costing over $200 per bottle.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 13:55 Fri 12 Dec 2014

I came across this thread when looking at something else which had a link to something else, etc, etc. The sentiments contained are marvellous, if a little rumbustious here and there. I especially liked Tom talking about the 1994, heretical as some of his sentiments were to those who wish to worship this particular golden calf. If any of the original protagonists, or indeed new ones wish to update their thoughts...

But I was thinking of the original question; Christmas is coming, so what port would you recommend for someone to buy as a single bottle with price, quality and availability at the front of your thoughts?

Thinking price and availability I would go crusted, Graham 1998 being the prima inter pares, for quality and price I would agree with Tom's original thought; almost anything from 1970, say another Graham.

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RAYC
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by RAYC » 14:58 Fri 12 Dec 2014

LGTrotter wrote:But I was thinking of the original question; Christmas is coming, so what port would you recommend for someone to buy as a single bottle with price, quality and availability at the front of your thoughts?
Last year I recommended the Sainsbury TTD 03 to several people - I thought that was drinking well and available cheaply (in the UK, anyway)

I haven't tried the Waitrose 11 (de la Rosa), but that would potentially be a good shout at £30 if the intention is to drink it at the end of a blow-out Xmas lunch.

The recently ex-cellars Smith Woodhouse 77 at £52.50 from BBR looks very good value to me as well. The one caveat is that I haven't checked to see whether (/when) it has been recorked (based on a few sub-par early performances, I would personally want to give recorked port a little time to settle down before opening).
Rob C.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 16:01 Fri 12 Dec 2014

RAYC wrote:The recently ex-cellars Smith Woodhouse 77 at £52.50 from BBR looks very good value to me as well. The one caveat is that I haven't checked to see whether (/when) it has been recorked (based on a few sub-par early performances, I would personally want to give recorked port a little time to settle down before opening).
Having just bought a case of these on the one hand I am pleased by the 'very good value' comment but on the other my heart was chilled by 'recorked'. I thought they might have been stored in Portugal, but I wasn't sure as there is usually a bigger tranche offered ex-cellars. I hope they haven't been recorked as I don't think it helps.

The Waitrose 11 seems a good port but a bit of a brute just at the moment. Might come round by Christmas 2041. :wink:

Edit; just emailed Berrys to ask about provenance of the SW77, I shall report back. But it has all gone from the website now.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 16:26 Fri 12 Dec 2014

I quote; "They have been with a 3rd party supplier until recently, good condition, not recorked."

I wonder who the 3rd man was? Cue zither music...

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RAYC
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by RAYC » 17:09 Fri 12 Dec 2014

LGTrotter wrote:I quote; "They have been with a 3rd party supplier until recently, good condition, not recorked."

I wonder who the 3rd man was? Cue zither music...
Might just be someone new who is referring to Fells...

The labels, selo and capsules on this stock look brand new (the label in particular is the perforated postage stamp style that has only been around for a few years). I removed the foil capsule on one bottle and the cork does not look particularly like any other 1977 cork I have opened over the last couple of years (though I am not 100% - it could just be in fantastic condition and cleaned up for release).

But I note that the Sw / GC 77 magnums and G70 bottles that I have purchased ex-cellars were all recorked.
Rob C.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 17:51 Fri 12 Dec 2014

RAYC wrote:Might just be someone new who is referring to Fells...

The labels, selo and capsules on this stock look brand new (the label in particular is the perforated postage stamp style that has only been around for a few years). I removed the foil capsule on one bottle and the cork does not look particularly like any other 1977 cork I have opened over the last couple of years (though I am not 100% - it could just be in fantastic condition and cleaned up for release).
I thought this might be a reference to Fells, but then again wouldn't they have referred to them as the shippers agent or something? Anyway Stuart Rae ain't all that new, but I remember when Adam (Bilbey) was a boy...

I am interested to hear that you have some of this stock from Berrys, the SW77 that is. Please post a tasting note if you open one. I think I shall leave mine be a while yet.

On another matter I am not sure I can resist the temptation to diss the 94s and speculate about the rubbishness of everything ending in 7 much longer...

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by jdaw1 » 18:45 Fri 12 Dec 2014

LGTrotter wrote:the rubbishness of everything ending in 7
1967? 1947? 1927? 1897? 1887? 1847? OK, maybe I’ll grant you the ’97.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 20:22 Fri 12 Dec 2014

jdaw1 wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:the rubbishness of everything ending in 7
1967? 1947? 1927? 1897? 1887? 1847? OK, maybe I’ll grant you the ’97.
I am not wedded to this idea, the 67s I like but understand that they are not widely regarded, certainly the price would reflect a poor market sentiment. Then there are the 77s; feted on release and on a bit of a slide ever since. Again I can be called to account for this as I have just bought a case of Smith Woodhouse and have praised the Graham as well. The 97s seem a bit weird to me, I can't quite put my finger on it but definitely wonky. Time may restore this. Then there are the 07s. Oh dear.

I am more interested in the 94s. As discussed I would side with Tom here (although he may well have abandoned his position by now) and say that while I have had perfectly respectable 94s the case for their greatness has passed me by. They seem comparable to ports from the eighties and not so sure footed as the 1970. And they do seem a bit too tasty for a twenty year old port. Just my own opine you understand...

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 22:16 Fri 12 Dec 2014

LGTrotter wrote:I quote; "They have been with a 3rd party supplier until recently, good condition, not recorked."

I wonder who the 3rd man was? Cue zither music...
I have only just realised what an anodyne response this is. Third party? Well that has eliminated me and the person who sent the email from my enquiries but it leaves the whole of the rest of humanity as the possible source.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by djewesbury » 22:17 Fri 12 Dec 2014

LGTrotter wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:I quote; "They have been with a 3rd party supplier until recently, good condition, not recorked."

I wonder who the 3rd man was? Cue zither music...
I have only just realised what an anodyne response this is. Third party? Well that has eliminated me and the person who sent the email from my enquiries but it leaves the whole of the rest of humanity as the possible source.
I didn't want to say.
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 22:19 Fri 12 Dec 2014

djewesbury wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:I quote; "They have been with a 3rd party supplier until recently, good condition, not recorked."

I wonder who the 3rd man was? Cue zither music...
I have only just realised what an anodyne response this is. Third party? Well that has eliminated me and the person who sent the email from my enquiries but it leaves the whole of the rest of humanity as the possible source.
I didn't want to say.
Well you should. I am easily gulled.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by djewesbury » 22:56 Fri 12 Dec 2014

"These bottles have been with Fingers and Hatchets for 20 years and have been Well Looked After." I got that sort of air from your 'third party'.
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by uncle tom » 10:56 Sat 13 Dec 2014

Reading this old thread I'm not cringing as much as I feared..

Since then, the age of bottles I'm drinking at home has got a lot older, and I'm now pretty confident that with cool UK cellaring, the 94s will mostly peak after their 40th year, although I still think this is a relatively near-term player.

Interesting to note the rollercoaster reportage on '77 - now coming right and set fair IMO.

The SW77 is a great beast of a wine, and the BBR price is good and rather out of line with their other offerings. My only slight niggle is that BBR appear reliant on ex cellars stock - although good, I'm pretty confident that some UK cellared stock I've got is even better..
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by djewesbury » 11:15 Sat 13 Dec 2014

We are opening a Magnum of S70 for our Xmas drinks party, plus A.N Other if it disappears too quickly. Or maybe we should just open a double mag of SV00 and have done with it.
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by mosesbotbol » 12:27 Sat 13 Dec 2014

uncle tom wrote:Reading this old thread I'm not cringing as much as I feared..

Interesting to note the rollercoaster reportage on '77 - now coming right and set fair IMO.
I've been quite please with the evolution of G77. The recent bottles I had this summer should make people re-evaluate this vintage. Not has hot as I remember it being.
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 14:46 Sat 13 Dec 2014

uncle tom wrote:I'm now pretty confident that with cool UK cellaring, the 94s will mostly peak after their 40th year, although I still think this is a relatively near-term player.
I agree with this, but I wonder if, when they reach this age if they will still be considered as quite such an outstanding vintage as it is today. Others may overhaul it. The 94 is seen as a watershed vintage, a break with the past and a reinvigoration of the market, this has been foisted upon it by our human need for narrative and is not intrinsic to the wines.
uncle tom wrote:The SW77 is a great beast of a wine, and the BBR price is good and rather out of line with their other offerings. My only slight niggle is that BBR appear reliant on ex cellars stock - although good, I'm pretty confident that some UK cellared stock I've got is even better..
Berrys optimistic pricing (for optimistic read preposterous) never quite makes sense to me, particularly when compared to the likes of Corney and Barrow and Justerini. But they seem to make a living at it. As I have said I am not sure if the current SW77 offering is ex-cellars, but having seen that it appears as two half dozens in my account I am not sanguine, sharing your concerns about ex-cellars ports. However I must take it as it comes, as John le Carre observes about the art of the double cross we seek advantage rather than perfection.
mosesbotbol wrote:
uncle tom wrote:Interesting to note the rollercoaster reportage on '77 - now coming right and set fair IMO.
I've been quite pleased with the evolution of G77. The recent bottles I had this summer should make people re-evaluate this vintage. Not has hot as I remember it being.
Again, somewhat tediously for the purposes of debate, I agree. The Graham is a lovely advert for the vintage if in an atypical style for them. And despite the big names remaining very expensive, relatively the 77s are looking more reasonable in their pricing these days.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by Andy Velebil » 15:35 Sat 13 Dec 2014

mosesbotbol wrote:
uncle tom wrote:Reading this old thread I'm not cringing as much as I feared..

Interesting to note the rollercoaster reportage on '77 - now coming right and set fair IMO.
I've been quite please with the evolution of G77. The recent bottles I had this summer should make people re-evaluate this vintage. Not has hot as I remember it being.
It's not that bad wines were made in 1977, the corks were just poop and have caused all sorts of problems.

The G77 has mellowed a bit and gotten much better, but it is still far from what most top Graham's are and always will be.

(BTW, poop wasn't what I wrote but the censors automatically changed it when I pressed the submit button)

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by uncle tom » 21:03 Sat 13 Dec 2014

It's not that bad wines were made in 1977, the corks were just poop and have caused all sorts of problems.
Not all of them, although almost all the ones used by Taylor are beyond salvation.
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by DRT » 23:53 Sat 13 Dec 2014

uncle tom wrote:
It's not that bad wines were made in 1977, the corks were just poop and have caused all sorts of problems.
Not all of them, although almost all the ones used by Taylor are beyond salvation.
Interesting comment. Out of 26 tasting notes here on TPF, most by more than one taster, only two mention cork problems, both of which were disputed.

1977 no doubt has cork issues but I must say Taylor 1977 is not a port that springs to mind in that context.
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by LGTrotter » 00:16 Sun 14 Dec 2014

I saw that Tom was recorking his, somewhere on this thread or another. Don't quite hold with this sort of thing. As a rule of thumb if it needs recorking; drink it.

There seem to be a few 77s with cork issues, but mainly Dow, Nierpoort and that's it, I think.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by jdaw1 » 00:49 Sun 14 Dec 2014

LGTrotter wrote:As a rule of thumb if it needs recorking; drink it.
That is an excellent guideline.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by RAYC » 03:42 Sun 14 Dec 2014

LGTrotter wrote: There seem to be a few 77s with cork issues, but mainly Dow, Nierpoort and that's it, I think.
i've never had an issue with Niepoort 77 corks, although they are off-puttingly short.
DRT wrote:
uncle tom wrote:
It's not that bad wines were made in 1977, the corks were just poop and have caused all sorts of problems.
Not all of them, although almost all the ones used by Taylor are beyond salvation.
Interesting comment. Out of 26 tasting notes here on TPF, most by more than one taster, only two mention cork problems, both of which were disputed.

1977 no doubt has cork issues but I must say Taylor 1977 is not a port that springs to mind in that context.
I was on the lookout for a case of Taylor 77 for some time, but whenever pictures came back from auction house or merchant they always seemed to be mucky bottles showing alarming signs of seepage. I recall there were also a fair few issues with T77 on the FTLOP offer as well. But my experience is that it's a different type of problem to the Dow 77 corks (which seems structurally sound but TCA afflicted).
Rob C.

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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by DRT » 03:49 Sun 14 Dec 2014

As some here will know I have never had Taylor 1977 which probably explains why I didn't take Tom's comment to be about the integrity of the seal rather than TCA.
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Re: Advice please Gentlemen

Post by uncle tom » 10:33 Sun 14 Dec 2014

why I didn't take Tom's comment to be about the integrity of the seal rather than TCA
Nothing to do with TCA IRO T77 - the corks used were of the lousiest quality, with the result that over 75% of the bottles coming to auction in case quantity are showing signs of seepage, mostly in the form of stained selos and crusting round the base of the capsule.
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