Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

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uncle tom
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 17:52 Tue 20 Sep 2016

Your question implies you have seen a more recent (2008+)?
I have T stoppered Warre 2009 LBV, and have seen 2010 and 2011 offered, presumably the same variant, as it would be too early to release them as bottle matured. Unlike the bottle matured LBVs currently on sale, these have red capsules instead of blue.

There is no mention of the non bottle-matured variety on their website however..
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Re: RE: Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by PhilW » 18:45 Tue 20 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:
I have T stoppered Warre 2009 LBV, and have seen 2010 and 2011 offered
...
There is no mention of the non bottle-matured variety on their website however..
Google shows me a few shops apparently offering the non-bottle-matured, though I don't remember seeing them before. It does seem odd that there is no mention of them on the Warre website, where they discuss and promote the benefits only of the traditional unfined/unfiltered method for LBV.

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AHB
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 23:07 Tue 20 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:Question:

Has Warre changed from late release bottle matured to filtered, or are they running both styles in tandem??
Warre has been running both styles in tandem for a number of years, but the only place I've seen the filtered Warre in the UK has been in the BA business class lounges and on flights. I don't know whether the Warre filtered is available elsewhere in the UK but from what you both say, it must be.
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uncle tom
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 12:41 Wed 21 Sep 2016

I note that Noval also appear to be making both filtered and unfiltered LBV, so caution needed when purchasing..
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Re: RE: Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by PhilW » 12:59 Wed 21 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:I note that Noval also appear to be making both filtered and unfiltered LBV, so caution needed when purchasing..
Noval have been doing that for several years at least, with both available via major suppliers and supermarkets in the UK at different times (and at least once both seen by myself at the same time in the same store).

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Re: RE: Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 14:10 Wed 21 Sep 2016

PhilW wrote:
uncle tom wrote:I note that Noval also appear to be making both filtered and unfiltered LBV, so caution needed when purchasing..
Noval have been doing that for several years at least, with both available via major suppliers and supermarkets in the UK at different times (and at least once both seen by myself at the same time in the same store).
And frequently confused by the supermarkets - which can result in a generous bargain if you accidentally buy the bottle matured LBV at the filtered LBV price.
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uncle tom
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 11:57 Thu 22 Sep 2016

Four more producers of definitely unfiltered LBV:

Q. Infantado
Vista Alegre
Q. Romaneira
Cruz

Edit - also Q. de la Rosa
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uncle tom
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 18:36 Thu 22 Sep 2016

A thought comes to mind..

Why are the two flagship brands of Taylor Fladgate and the Symingtons - Taylor and Graham - presented as the pinnacle of their respective houses.. - both trading at the bottom end of the LBV spectrum, with filtered and T-stoppered offerings?

With the TFP, the 'natural' brand for the filtered offering would seem to be Croft, and now that the Syms have Cockburn under their wing, that too would seem to be the obvious filtered brand - easily presented as CSR's big brother.

OK, we've grown used to Taylor's filtered LBV on the supermarket shelves, but given the efforts made to elevate the Graham brand in recent years, the LBV now looks a bit sad and neglected...
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DaveRL » 23:06 Thu 22 Sep 2016

AHB wrote:
PhilW wrote:
uncle tom wrote:I note that Noval also appear to be making both filtered and unfiltered LBV, so caution needed when purchasing..
Noval have been doing that for several years at least, with both available via major suppliers and supermarkets in the UK at different times (and at least once both seen by myself at the same time in the same store).
And frequently confused by the supermarkets - which can result in a generous bargain if you accidentally buy the bottle matured LBV at the filtered LBV price.
I am confused. I have some black label Noval which are clearly marked unfiltered. I also have white labelled ones, one of which I opened tonight.

Image

It has a driven cork

Image

And threw some sediment (more stayed in bottle)

Image

The question is, filtered or unfiltered?

Tasty, but I won't try and keep any if filtered.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DaveRL » 23:33 Thu 22 Sep 2016

The back label, if this helps

Image

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by jdaw1 » 09:43 Fri 23 Sep 2016

DaveRL wrote:I am confused.
DaveRL wrote:Noval
Yes, QdN does that. Noval Quinta do Silval, anybody?

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by idj123 » 13:13 Fri 23 Sep 2016

I came unstuck with the filtered Warre LBV a couple of years ago having bought eight bottles of the 2008 blind at auction believing that they had to be the 'traditional' variety (I congratulated myself at getting a bargain). Didn't bear comparison to the live version-I drank one, used one for cooking and gave the rest away.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 15:32 Sat 24 Sep 2016

Confusing indeed..

So, we seem to have the following variants of LBV:

1) T stopper and presumed filtered, e.g. Taylor, Graham

2) T stopper but clearly stated as unfiltered, e.g. Croft, Fonseca (older Fonseca LBVs have driven corks)

3) Driven corks but no statement on filtration, possibly 'soft' filtered, e.g. Offley, Quevedo, or possibly not, e.g. Niepoort

4) Driven corks and clearly stated to be unfiltered, e.g. Ramos Pinto, Crasto

5) Driven corks, declared unfiltered and late released as bottle matured, e.g. Warre (blue capsule), Smith Woodhouse

This is too complex (and yes, I also found out about the existence of the filtered red top Warre the hard way..)

- Brands having multiple styles of LBV are clearly a problem. To have one variant declared as unfiltered and another with no statement on filtration is obviously confusing. If producers want to market multiple styles under the same brand, they should be obliged to put the word 'filtered' clearly on the label, where appropriate, and not just say nothing.

- T stoppers on unfiltered LBV don't look very clever, and although they can maintain a seal for a good length of time, tend to snap when removed after a decade or so. In the interests of clarity and collective product image, I think the IVDP should outlaw these closures on unfiltered bottles.

- The third type of LBV leaves people guessing, which is not helpful. I'm not sure why Dirk elects to make no statement on filtration, either on his bottles or his website, but as they age very well, it's pretty evident that nothing of significance is stripped from them. Perhaps the IVDP should invite Dirk to pen a definition of 'unfiltered' based on his own practices, so he (and others) can be less hesitant about using the term..
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by jdaw1 » 17:17 Sat 24 Sep 2016

Allow some agreement, and some disagreement.
uncle tom wrote:- The third type of LBV leaves people guessing, which is not helpful. I'm not sure why Dirk elects to make no statement on filtration, either on his bottles or his website, but as they age very well, it's pretty evident that nothing of significance is stripped from them. Perhaps the IVDP should invite Dirk to pen a definition of 'unfiltered' based on his own practices, so he (and others) can be less hesitant about using the term..
uncle tom wrote:Brands having multiple styles of LBV are clearly a problem. To have one variant declared as unfiltered and another with no statement on filtration is obviously confusing. If producers want to market multiple styles under the same brand, they should be obliged to put the word 'filtered' clearly on the label, where appropriate, and not just say nothing.
Why not oblige all to specify? Why require users to know what else they produce? Always state filtered or unfiltered. If there are awkward in-between cases, the IVDP could define (or use Dirk N.’s definition of) some other terms such as “slightly filtered”.
uncle tom wrote:the IVDP should outlaw
Portugal does not have a deficit of regulation. It has far too much. If the label is clear, why regulate the closure at all. Allow the shipper to choose driven cork, T-stopper, screw cap, artificial, bag-in-box, other.

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uncle tom
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 17:52 Sat 24 Sep 2016

Portugal does not have a deficit of regulation. It has far too much.
It certainly has far too many regulators, and too much regulation that has no cost benefit. However, a large part of the success of the French wine industry comes down to the presence of clear regional frameworks for the presentation of products.

There is absolutely no reason why a quality bottle of claret could not be offered with a T stopper or a screw cap, but they don't. Moreover if a change was considered sensible and desirable, all the producers in a region would make the change in lockstep.

The anarchic nature of port's packaging and presentation may be liked by some, but overall I very much doubt it's good for trade.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by LGTrotter » 18:57 Sat 24 Sep 2016

In trying to explain what port to buy and the various categories to novices I often run into the sand, being met with the blank stare of the confused. This may be because I lack clarity, or because the variations are confusing. I would not like to put myself on either side of this debate because I believe that some things are worth the struggle to understand.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by jdaw1 » 19:07 Sat 24 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:It certainly has far too many regulators, and too much regulation that has no cost benefit.
Assume that LBV rules are changed such that filtration must be stated clearly. Conditional on that, why regulate closures?

(I agree that without clear labelling, closures can be a substitute label. Please assume mandatory labelling.)

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 09:56 Sun 25 Sep 2016

Assume that LBV rules are changed such that filtration must be stated clearly.
I think the producers will be very squeamish about putting the word 'filtered' on any label. Of all the red table wine sold in supermarkets, probably over 95% has been subjected to significant filtration, yet the labels never say so.

Requiring the word 'filtered' to be placed on a filtered LBV label when the producer is making both filtered and unfiltered LBV under the same brand name would almost certainly result in the producer electing to market one of the variants under a different brand name, thereby removing the confusion element.
Conditional on that, why regulate closures?
As previously noted, for the same reason that good claret doesn't come with a screw cap..
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by jdaw1 » 18:05 Sun 25 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:As previously noted, for the same reason that good claret doesn't come with a screw cap..
Good claret doesn't come with a screw cap because makers of good claret think that their customers wouldn’t want that. And if their customers do want that, it should be allowed. (There might be rules as well—but there shouldn’t be.)

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by LGTrotter » 18:31 Sun 25 Sep 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
uncle tom wrote:As previously noted, for the same reason that good claret doesn't come with a screw cap..
Good claret doesn't come with a screw cap because makers of good claret think that their customers wouldn’t want that. And if their customers do want that, it should be allowed. (There might be rules as well—but there shouldn’t be.)
I'm sure there aren't rules, as evidenced by a rather stylish Segla 2009 which came with a screwcap. It is the second wine of Rausan Segla and was delicious, if a little modern. But I think this last view was influenced by the screwcap.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DaveRL » 22:44 Sun 25 Sep 2016

Both Sandeman 09 LBV and Ferreira 09 LBV opened this weekend. Both very good indeed. Both much better than filtered Noval 05.

I'm sorry that many will fail to come across the excellent unfiltered LBV and assume filtered LBV is as good as the category gets. Clear labelling could help, and maybe even encourage some to step further up the quality ladder.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 08:10 Tue 27 Sep 2016

I had it confirmed yesterday - when I tried the excellent 2011 unfiltered version - that Noval make both filtered and unfiltered LBV. The filtered LBV is aimed at the restaurant / aviation market and is intended for more or less immediate consumption on release.

The unfiltered version states on the label that it is unfiltered. It is actually treated in the same way as vintage port (ie. racked at room temperature) except for the fact that it sits in the barrel for a little extra time. It is intended to be able to be aged in the bottle and to reward a little patience. Indeed, in my opinion, it needs another 5 years or so before it will really show what it might have when it hits its peak.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by Glenn E. » 19:51 Tue 27 Sep 2016

AHB wrote:It is intended to be able to be aged in the bottle and to reward a little patience. Indeed, in my opinion, it needs another 5 years or so before it will really show what it might have when it hits its peak.
I have a 6-pack of the 2003 unfiltered that I don't plan to touch until 2018, at which point I expect it to need another 5-10 years. I probably wouldn't touch a 2011 unfiltered until at least 2026, and 2031 is probably safer.

I popped a 2003 Quevedo unfiltered last year, much to my chagrin. Patience, young padawan.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 10:42 Thu 29 Sep 2016

Glenn E. wrote:I popped a 2003 Quevedo unfiltered last year, much to my chagrin. Patience, young padawan.
I've been looking at my Quevedo '03 six pack recently and wondering whether it is time top open one. Thank you for posting and being first and helping me to decide to wait. I will follow your guidance Master Obi Wine Kenobi.
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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