Another "nice" fake

[Axel P]

Recently spotted on italian ebay:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/VINTAGE-PORT-WIN ... 1c5a554793

[Andy Velebil]

Have you reported it to Ebay as fake yet?

It's an old bottle of whatever cheap t-cork sealed wine.

[DRT]

I remember us having a bottle of Fonseca Guimaraens 1933 with a very similar capsule and t-cork a few years ago at the RAF club.

Is it possible that these bottles are genuine and come from a time when the trade was experimenting with a new form of closure?

[uncle tom]

That shade of even green bottle glass is very sixties, and the crumples in the re-applied label are quite evident - 99.9% certainty it's a fake

[DRT]

I suppose there is only one way to find out.

Please don't bid against me

[Andy Velebil]

And the dirt looks "applied"


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[uncle tom]

There's also a slightly suspect bottle being offered in Christies online sale - lot 11

https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/chri ... 7-11/19958

Croft 45 - Billed as BBR bottled, which I think is incorrect - I've seen a great many of these in sales, with the same glass and label configuration, but never has one had a foil capsule.

It could be a perfectly innocent replacement capsule - or it could be a re-filled bottle...

[PhilW]

Wasn't sure why, but that bottle didn't seem right to me either - possibly the label too white, not sure but didn't feel right.

[flash_uk]

Wasn't sure why, but that bottle didn't seem right to me either - possibly the label too white, not sure but didn't feel right.

There's a very similar one here on your VPID.

[uncle tom]

possibly the label too white

There is quite a high contrast on the central label panel, not repeated elsewhere on that rather involved label arrangement, which looks a bit doubtful on photos but is actually genuine. The foil capsule, however, needs explanation..

[uncle tom]

There's a very similar one here

That looks kosher..

[uncle tom]

After communicating with the vendor of the bottle with the Graham '45 label stuck on it, and giving him 24hrs to remove the listing, I have now submitted a counterfeit report to eBay..

[DRT]

I suppose there is only one way to find out.

Please don't bid against me

I have now submitted a counterfeit report to eBay..

...and so we will never know. Thanks.

[uncle tom]

None of the bidder ID profiles looked British, so I was only trying to save some poor continental sod from being duped..!

Slightly worrying is that however you jiggle the settings, no UK eBay search brings this item up - unless I'm missing something..

[DRT]

Bidder profiles on ebay are as good as anonymous.

[Axel P]

Have you reported it to Ebay as fake yet?

Yes I have, but since Germany is a Port diaspora, nobody understands what I am talking about.

Axel

[uncle tom]

Bidder profiles on ebay are as good as anonymous

If you delve into their bid history, the categories give some clues, and until recently, the lead bidder on this sale had an ID ending in an 'i' - which is common amongst Italians, but rare elsewhere..

[djewesbury]

Bidder profiles on ebay are as good as anonymous

If you delve into their bid history, the categories give some clues, and until recently, the lead bidder on this sale had an ID ending in an 'i' - which is common amongst Italians, but rare elsewhere..

I thought that bidder identities on eBay were anonymised random strings? If I log in as someone else and look at things I've bid on, my ID is concealed and bears no resemblance to my real ID. I haven't logged into this sale so I'm speaking conjecturally. But it seems a little far-fetched to make the statement quoted above.

[JB vintage]

May I ask why you think this is fake? It is good to know how to spot the fakes so I would really like to know how you spotted this one.

[DRT]

May I ask why you think this is fake? It is good to know how to spot the fakes so I would really like to know how you spotted this one.

I don't think it is a fake but others seem to be entirely convinced.

The fact that it appears to have a t-stopper rather than a driven cork is one clue, but I have seen a bottle of VP from 1933 that came from the Fonseca cellars that had an identical capsule and t-stopper and was entirely genuine.

One thing I would say is that if I was going to go to the trouble of producing a fake bottle I think I would fill it properly

[Andy Velebil]

I've personally seen a fake 1933 Croft VP with a t-cork. Also seen the FG that we had with a t-cork.

The latter however is was a "second label" Port, even back then. This is an Oporto bottled Graham's so the odds are it's not real. Of course, it is Port so there is always that ultra slim chance. Anyone ask the Sym's what they think?

[DRT]

Someone has paid much more than I was prepared to risk...

Screen Shot 2015-10-05 at 18.52.38.png (97.47 KiB) Viewed 11386 times

[LGTrotter]

I have just read Andy's thoughts on the 31 Noval on the wine berserkers site. I note he was advising caution rather than crying foul but a most interesting thread, all the more so for Andy's intervention. Now all I have to do is track down some pictures of the bottles themselves.

[Andy Velebil]

I have just read Andy's thoughts on the 31 Noval on the wine berserkers site. I note he was advising caution rather than crying foul but a most interesting thread, all the more so for Andy's intervention. Now all I have to do is track down some pictures of the bottles themselves.

Sadly there has been an uptick in what was mostly pre-WW2 Port bottles that has now started to extend into post WW2 stuff. I haven't seen it showing up in American auctions as of yet, but it has been showing up in European auctions. I would advise anyone to be very careful of buying older Port at the moment.

This is an important link to review that has some pics of recent pre WW2 bottles that ended up being fake. It also includes a link on FTLOP of what appears to be fake 1815 Royal Oporto bottles being sold a person claiming to be Noval's distributor in Portugal. I thought he also posted them here for sale but I couldn't find a thread.

http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopfo ... =1&t=39072

[LGTrotter]

My assumption has been that Petrus, Cheval Banc and DRC were the most likely to be faked. Port was not worth cooking up. But like many of my opinions this seems outdated. Perhaps this is why I am buying less and less at auction, and now only when I can go and have a look at the bottles. Trust arrives on foot and leaves on horseback as those canny Belgians say.

Anyway, here is the link to the wine berserkers thread;

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... 1&t=121669

Very interesting stuff Andy, and I thank you for it.